No Grounding Wire On Remodel

 
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:54 PM   #1
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No Grounding Wire On Remodel


Going to try and simplfy it as much as I can. 60yr old 3 flat, gut renovation on the 1st floor apt. All outlets, switches and lighting were updated at some point with looks like 14 gauge wire, but only 2 wire - no green ground has been found anywhere in the building. Im not an electrician, just contractor. I already know the box is not grounded, I have no problem managing the electrical to code from the box, but thats where I stop - no chance Im grounding anything. Plus homeowner doesnt want the electrician expense so doesnt really matter how much I tell them its a really good idea.

Heres my thought, the job is simple in the fact that we are only relocating outlets and switches to make the room more practical since it will be having a kitchen and living room. My main line is in the same wall that shares the bathroom. The bathroom had a medicine cabinet in the wall that we decided to mount a flat door in its place with mirror over it in order to be able to have a visual in the wall incase there were any future problems. If I wired the room using 12-3 wire instead of 12-2 and put my first junction behind that door - a future electrician would have access to that ground wire without having to chase it throughout the entire apartment.

Do I hook up the ground wire to all my outlets and switches eventhough it is not grounded and leave the line in that main box unattached - OR should I leave the green wire unattached at every box and just roll it up and leave it for future use???
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:58 PM   #2
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


If it's a gut renovation, why not run the circuits to the panel and have grounded circuits all the way around from the git-go?

BTW, 12-3 is black, white & red with a bare ground..... 12-2 is black & white with a bare ground.

By 'main line', do you mean you're only going to install ONE circuit?

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Old 03-04-2013, 07:59 PM   #3
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


This has scary written all over it.
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:20 PM   #4
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


Some electrician (when they did decide to pay for one) mounted a second panel into their second floor apartment so they would not have to go into the garage if a fuse blew. Today when we gutted the old lines, and traced where the power was coming from - he ran power from circuits on the second floor panel to power up the 1st floor apt - so now those live lines that I have to work with are actually shared between the second floor's bedrooms and living room - its a freaking mess, plus the fact I pulled 10 neutral wires out of 1 box that all showed signs of melted plastic, total disaster.
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:22 PM   #5
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


Sounds like they need an electrician.
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:34 PM   #6
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


Once again: If it's a total gut, why not run new circuits back to the panel and have everything grounded from the git-go?
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:38 PM   #7
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


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Sounds like they need an electrician.
And a real one.
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:02 AM   #8
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


Almost sounds like its still knob and tube...
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:18 AM   #9
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


I bet this is all bx
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:33 AM   #10
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


It's a gut. Rewire it.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:42 AM   #11
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


you should really call a local licensed electrician your knowledge seems limited in this trade and mistakes can be deadly. The homeowner is paying you or paying a qualified electrician so unless it is a matter of you not wanting to give up the money I would call an ellectrician
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:39 AM   #12
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kastoria View Post
Going to try and simplfy it as much as I can. 60yr old 3 flat, gut renovation on the 1st floor apt. All outlets, switches and lighting were updated at some point with looks like 14 gauge wire, but only 2 wire - no green ground has been found anywhere in the building. Im not an electrician, just contractor. I already know the box is not grounded, I have no problem managing the electrical to code from the box, but thats where I stop - no chance Im grounding anything. Plus homeowner doesnt want the electrician expense so doesnt really matter how much I tell them its a really good idea.

Heres my thought, the job is simple in the fact that we are only relocating outlets and switches to make the room more practical since it will be having a kitchen and living room. My main line is in the same wall that shares the bathroom. The bathroom had a medicine cabinet in the wall that we decided to mount a flat door in its place with mirror over it in order to be able to have a visual in the wall incase there were any future problems. If I wired the room using 12-3 wire instead of 12-2 and put my first junction behind that door - a future electrician would have access to that ground wire without having to chase it throughout the entire apartment.

Do I hook up the ground wire to all my outlets and switches eventhough it is not grounded and leave the line in that main box unattached - OR should I leave the green wire unattached at every box and just roll it up and leave it for future use???
Well there is little I can add beyond what others have said. I a little confused though......what is the "box", do you mean the service panel ? sub panel ?...........what is a "main line" ? To me, a main line are the secondary service feeders coming off the POCO HV lines, either off the pole or underground........but, hey, what the heck do I know.

Just guessing, it sounds to me that: This is a knob and tube job; some "hack" ran 14/2 or 14/3 off from the KT to various outlets and switches; the main service panel is definitely not grounded (typical for older installs, although maybe they ran a ground to the water line coming in? who knows); that fact that the owner doesn't want the "electrician" expense demonstrates to me that he probably NEVER had an electrician do anything, most likely some handyman, hack or DIY'er.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:49 AM   #13
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


Just instal gfci's everywhere hahaha.. noo dont..

Call a licensed electrician....
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:29 PM   #14
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


I totally agree. Ive told them this it needs to be properly grounded from the box, thats where I stop. They dont want the expense. Luckily, knob and tube was gutted a while ago, everything I am pulling out is all bx now...with plenty of white wires attached to black wires not marked as black. Total mess. There is no money for me to give up to an electrician, for me to move 6 outlets and 2 switches to a better location was never an increase in cost - but from what I am seeing I do not like the idea of doing the work and not having stuff properly grounded. Their kids agree, but the parents wont let the kids pay for it either. So now im stuck installing 3 prong outlets with no ground. That is why if I ran 3 wires from now, and just didnt utilize the ground, at least it would be there and run throughout for an electrician to ground eventually without opening up any walls. Thats all I am trying to figure out, should i place the third wire in the wall since its open or not? An electrician will have access to the line with power through an access door and only have to supply the ground to that location from the panel "eventually" i hope
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:48 PM   #15
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


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......So now im stuck installing 3 prong outlets with no ground.......
I hope you're going to install some GFCIs.
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:03 PM   #16
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


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I hope you're going to install some GFCIs.
As well as have these cheapskates sign something that says they refused to do it right. I'd hate to see you on the hook when somebody gets electrocuted. They might use the "you touched it...you own it" deal on you.

Cover your arse!
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:44 PM   #17
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


Quote:
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I hope you're going to install some GFCIs.
Dosnt code state you can install up to one gfci during a repair? Not the hole house?
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:45 PM   #18
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


What type of wire is this??? Romex or bx???
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:27 PM   #19
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


Quote:
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As well as have these cheapskates sign something that says they refused to do it right.
Unfortunately, that won't get you off the hook. You know that.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:23 PM   #20
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Re: No Grounding Wire On Remodel


I gutted bx out. I was going to replace it with romex, already have 100ft of it. Would AFCI breakers and GFCI outlets offer any extra protection with no ground? Theyre in their 70's guys, theyre more concerned about what type of kitchen cabinets to get than what goes on behind them. Other than AFCI breakers, the only way I can think about making them realize anything is to just shut the job down and cause a total delay until its safe. I have 6 days until sheetrock shows up, cant close the walls until this is rectified.

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