Need An Opinion Or 20 Lol

terrynistler

I was called out this morning to go look at a house that was just purchased and go over the home inspectors list and fix those problems. I am not going to go in the list to keep it short but here is my main stickler which wasn't on the list. The panel is a newer 200 amp in the attic accessible only by an outside porch scuttle hole 12 feet off the ground. Service feed is #6 going through eve. I have to meet the house inspector tomorrow because when I told them I couldn't fix the list without fixing that and 50 other things basically a reposition and rewire they got irate. The scuttle hole is 18x18 push up cover on back porch. I will attach pics tomorrow when I go back with digital wasn't in the truck today. I tried finding any specific code issues to site to the home inspector but really can't find any other then ocp readily accessible which this is not. Tired long day help me out a little please. I don't ask alot

mdshunk

Home inspectors are a bunch of well meaning guys, who generally red flag the wost items. Not noticing a #6 service entrance conductors in the riser terminated on a 200 amp breaker seems like a screw-up. Everyone's entitled to those every once in a while. Home inspectors carry insurance for that.

Working space at that panel is one issue. 6-1/2 feet of headroom, etc. I think you need a permanent stairway for that panel to be legal too, if memory serves. I'm getting sick or something, and don't have the energy to look up a code reference.

terrynistler

You are correct on both and I have those codes and the def of readily accessible ready for the meeting. Also A code on size of opening portal. they have 4' total headroom and opening is at bottom of panel so stand on ladder to fix. That is also a violation regardless of permanent or not ladder access I believe. These people tried there best to go in prepared but still paid top dollar. The cost is biting them now plus my liability of fixing only whats on the list when I noticed 50 more things. The inspector did qualify that it should be reviewed by an electrician. That they failed to do till today. I hope you get to feeling better and thanks.

mdshunk

Well then, the home inspector is cleared. It seems once they've found a certain amount of items, they'll throw in a blanket "deferr to an electrician" statement. I don't blame them for that. They're not comprehensive code inspectors. The new homeowners failed to have an electrician look it over completely before the close, and now they want to whine and cry. It's their fault. Sharpen your interpersonal skills and your sales skills and tell them they'll have to bite the bullet.

I know you've had a long week so far, but there's nobody making you do this job. Make your list, check it twice, and submit your price. Resist the urge to cut a corner just to do the people a favor. They made this bed, and they'll need to lay in it.

terrynistler

LOL thats pretty much to the letter what I told them. I know the home inspector and he is about the best in the region but I told them if I did that job there is no way I could address every code issue in that many trades and they should have read the comments section and took it more seriously and called me then. Still a total rewire and reposition of the panel is not cheap for them I gave them my qoute already the house is 50% cloth cover and 48% romex no g. 2% romex w/g. The bad part is that they called another electrician and he said the panel as it is is no problem and he could fix them up for 4 grand. Wait for the pictures.....

mdshunk

They could be bluffing. BUT, in the event that another electrician does just "patch it up", that's a job I'd drop a dime on.

terrynistler

Wow that is why I found that dime in the parking lot today!

Magnettica

NEC articles 110.26 and 230.70 (A)(1) come to mind first.

#6 for 200AMP?

Maybe you could install an outside disconnect, upgrade the feeders, isolate your equipment grounds and neutrals, and make the main panel into a sub panel.

mdshunk

Except for the fact that the panel is in the attic, with very little headroom, and only a little scuttle hole to get up to it. No way in this lifetime I'd refeed that panel mounted in that location.

terrynistler

230.70 is what led to the call to me from the ho via home inspector. They thought it was that simple. When I did the walk threw I found many others including the ocp being not readily accessible, however changing it to a sub panel could be perfectly acceptable. If I fixed the other code issues. I only do work AS IF MY FAMILY WAS LIVING THERE. But that is an (I think ) an approved manner. Wait for pics. this could be a major thread. The worst I have seen ever. The house was built by an electrician. I haven't even got into the 5 switches that control one light. He was in a wheelchair at the end.

I appreciate all the positive thoughts since sometimes we work in a box and can't fight out of it. There are tons of solutions maybe I should send to to the trade schools around here.

Magnettica

I agree. It's not something I would do either, but rather, something that could be done, and 'maybe' meet code. This seems like a job that could quickly turn into a no-profit type job in a hurry.

Another option would be to reroute those conductors to an outside/ weatherproof panel. Maybe use some ridgid-nonmetallic conduit from the attic space to the top of the panel. Don't forget to derate those conductors.

SmithBuilt

They could just live with it the way it is, exception being the #6 egc. In my state the inspectors will not make you change something unless it is life threatening.

From what I've seen on this forum I presume in some states if the inspector finds violations he will require repairs. Is that true?

thom

Around here, if we modify any electric the panel must be brought up to code.

terrynistler

Pretty much the same here. You have a little leeway but if you are bringing one section of it up to code then the inspector will want all of it up to code. The catch is if you fix one thing you are more or less saying the rest is OK. That old last guy on the job owns it rule.

thom

Terry, so if your electrical bureau insists on doing everything, why would you even consider doing less? It was the owners screw up, let them pay. No sense taking that big risk.

mdshunk

Have you ever gotten these form letters from homeowner's insurance companies to sign, stating that all the wiring in the home is in safe condition? I get them all the time. Sometimes I sign them, sometimes I don't. Depends on the house, how much I find wrong, and how much of it they'll let me fix.

Capt2

Interesting mention of the inspector's insurance. I just bought a house in Michigan. After purchase, aside from several electrical issues, the dumbo inspector is off the hook for failing to notice that 3 of the 4 bedrooms had no heat service or registers.

My understanding is that most if not all inspectors have you sign a waiver that they are only liable for the cost of the inspection. Unfortunately in Mich. law this is upheld in court. Perhaps other states or inspectors work differently, but I figure even if he has insurance, he'll try not filing a claim to avoid a rate sky rocket.

mdcorreia

When I was doing repair work or whatever, I stated in the permit application what EXACTLY I was doing and NOTHING ELSE. Any doubts, let the owner show the invoice which states exactly the work done and charges according to the permit and the description of the work.
Now mr inspector, if you have any questions or concerns about any wiring OTHER THAN WHAT I DID go and talk to the owner, over there, and don't talk to me. Then the inspector takes out a violation sheet, fills it out and hands it to the owner, NOT TO ME. The owner has usually 7 days to comply. End of story. Nothing to do with the electrician. The proof ,in court, would be on what did the electrician charge you for? and what is sated in the permit and description of work?
I have seen messages here where electricians get upset because other wiring had been done wrong about 20 years ago or something. Now they are forced to repair it for free! Don't give in. Be firm. If you did not wire it, forget it. It is not your responsibility at all. It would be an EXTRA payable and signed a change order in advance.

Project53

I must be missing something here. In my part of the country, you need a CO , before you can move in( or the house can be sold, to the new ower). To that end the township, county, whatever sends out there "inspector". These guys test all gfi outlets, firealarms..etc: looking for "code" violations. You can not sell the house until the violations are repaired. This falls on the seller to repair any and all violations.

From what I'm hearing , I don't see how this meets code. But I guess this depends on where you live. Since the people have moved in, I guess the Town Inspector passed the house for the CO. Meaning, the new oweners don't have to do a thing...it ALL supposedly meets code.

My guess is the Town inspector didn't bother to climb up and look at this mess. If this dose not meet code and is easy to prove so. The town inspector missed it. The new homeowner, "MAY" be able to go back to the seller and get the moneys to repair the problem.

jbwhite

Where I live saying "the inspector passed it" is never in any way a defence against the work not being done properly. The state board views this as being similar to getting pulled over for speeding, and telling the cop that he cant give you a ticket cause you blew past the last cop and he didnt pull you over.

The laws are rigged to prevent the city, county, or state from ever being held liable for anything. This is probably becasue they make the laws.