GFCIs Controlling Lights- Code ?

Jack's Building

I was looking at a (new) house a freind is thinking of buying and relized that the overhead lights are run through the GFCI outlets. This occurs in the kitchen and bathrooms. What happens is when the GFCI is tripped, the overhead lights go out (the only lights in the area). This also happens in the toilet room when the GFCI in the main bath area is tripped. Aside from being very inconvent, and possibly dangrous, is this a violation of code?

If it matters the kithen is an open to the dining room.

Thanks for the help guys.

Jack

Magnettica

To me, this is an easy fix. Whats happening is whoever installed the GFCI devices used the line/ load feature. The line is the power coming into the receptacle, the load is whatever is attached to the circuit downstream. In this case, the overhead lighting.

To fix this, you need to remove the device and pigtail both pairs of wires attached the receptacle and re-install them to the line side of the GFCI receptacle.

To meet code in the kitchen, all of the receptacles on the coutertop need to have GFCI protection.

To meet code in the bathroom, ALL of the receptacles need GFCI protection.

Be sure to deenergize ALL circuits first.

Good luck!

Speedy Petey

If the kitchen lighting is fed off the counter circuits that is a BIG violation.
You say this is a "new" house, or just new to your friend?

If it is truly new then I would be wary of what else they screwed up.

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Leo G

I thought a bathroom needed 2 circiuts, one for the outlets and one for the lights. Just to address this occurance of the GFCI &/or the breaker going off and blacking out the lighting. I could just be Connecticut.

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Jack's Building

Thanks for the responses, I think that I will be having a talk with the builder. This house is new, as in brand new never sold. If any of you know what part of code this vilates I would be glad to know. Jack

Magnettica

1) 210.8 (A)(6) for GFCI protection on kitchen countertops...

2) 210.52 (B)(2) for no other outlets on the required (2) small-appliance branch circuits in the kitchen, dining room, pantry.

There are two exceptions for 210.52 (B)(2). One is for a receptacle that feeds an electric clock, and the other is for a receptacle that's used for a gas-fired appliance, like a gas stove.

Magnettica

The NEC explains that (1) 20AMP individual branch circuit is required for a bathroom receptacle. It shall serve no other outlets. The exception to this requirement goes on to explain that as long as the 20AMP circuit energizes only outlets within the same bathroom that that is ok. It's a circuit design issue. 1 curcuit for the lighting, and the 2nd for the GFCI, is in my estimation a good install and design.

SmithBuilt

Also 210.11 (C)(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits

provided that the circuit feeds more than one bathroom.





Magnettica beat me to it.

Magnettica

Yes, that's the article I was referring to.

thom

In the bathroom(s) it is acceptable to use one circuit for a bathroom that includes receptacles and lights. Presumably this is what he did. I believe it is a better way to wire because a tripped gfi in one bath won't shut off the receptacle in another. In any event, the fix is simple. If there are more than one receptacle he probably pulled off for the lights somewhere down line of the gfi. Just jumper off the line side on the first gfi and install another at the other receptacle.

The real issue is, why is the gfi tripping. You should not be using anything in a bathroom that would trip the gfi, unless you drop your curling iron in a basin of water.

Speedy Petey

As long as the circuit is isolated to only the one bath you can share the receptacle with lights and fans.

The mention of not doing it this way becasue "if the GFI trips the lights go out" is a non-issue.
Wire the lights and fan on the LINE side of the GFI. The fan only needs GFI protection if it is over a tub or shower.

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Magnettica

Thom, the only reason why a GFCI receptacle or circuit breaker would trip is from a difference of current from the ungrounded (black) and grounded (white) conductor. The coil within the GFCI detects this "leakage" at 4-6 milliamps and breaks the circuit. If it didn't trip, this would be the current that could kill you. So it can be anything that sets off the GFCI.

Jack's Building

The only reason it triped was because I was testing it.

If it had been wired under my suppervision this whole problem would have been a non issue. What worries me is soppose you turned a curling iron on to preheat and went to the toilet room. The if GFCI tripped it not only cuts of the curling iron but cuts the lights off in the bathroom and toilet area.

The Developer was faxed notification of the problem this afternoon, we'll see what they do. Makes you wounder about the rest of the work.

Jack

Jack's Building

I checked today and the builder has fixed the problem

Thanks for the help and responses.

Jack

fridaymean

Some Munincipalities around here are requiring the entire bath to be gfi protected. Others think it is stupid. I dont think people would be stupid enough to change light bulbs while standing in a puddle of water in thier bare feet. If they are that stupid, they deserve what is comming....

thom

Magnetta, I understand how a GFCI works. I just believe that an appliance that trips one shouldn't be used. The answer "using a tester" makes sense.

Same Old

Codes are minimums

I think good design pulls the lights in the bathroom off another lighting circuit, like the hallway. It's like putting your refrigerator outlet on an often used lighting circuit so you know quickly if you have tripped it. Getting these details right is as important as tight miters IMHO.

boman47k

When I rewired my kitchen, I ran a dedicated circuit for the fridge. When I read this post, I thought it sounded like a good idea it being tied into a light circuit, but as much as my fridge is opened and closed, I'll know pretty quick if the power is off . Still sounds like a good idea for a stand-alone chest freezer. Glad I thought of it .

JohnJ0906

If that fridge is in your kitchen, that is a NEC violation. 250.52(B)(1) and (2)

edit to add-For one in a different location, such as a garage or basement, that won't be opened often, it might be a good idea, if done properly

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"One Day at a Time"
All replies based on the 2008 NEC

Same Old

I don't have an NEC handy. What does it read?

I've had a lot of kitchens wired like this. Inspectors aren't really looking at things like that though, maybe no one ever noticed?