gfci - breaker or outlet? - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

bob_cntrctr · 09-17-2009, 09:36 PM

Gentlemen,

I'm dealing with an older place. Ungrounded outlets everywhere, including near sinks. Looking to do a little upgrade to at least gfci protection on outlets near kitchen and bathroom sinks.

I know I can go to gfci outlets IF I label them "No Ground", or I can go to gfci breakers in I label them "No ground" and "gfci protected" - but what are the pros and cons of each?

Breakers - expensive. What else?

Thanks.

Static Design · 09-17-2009, 09:47 PM

So that's what those little stickers are for.

bob_cntrctr · 09-17-2009, 09:55 PM

OK, thought of one - if there's any knob and tube - ya, it's that old - the unbalanced load on the common return if there's more than one outlet on a circuit and both are used will trip the breaker every time.

Celtic · 09-17-2009, 10:37 PM

You should become intimately familiar with 406.3(D) before making any decisions.

480sparky · 09-17-2009, 10:48 PM

Receptacles: Box fill may be an issue. If one trips, it may not be easy to locate if they're scattered hodge-podge around the house.

Breakers: May not be near by in case one trips. But at least you know where they all are. Multi-wires can be problematic. Also, did the breaker trip due to a ground fault, or an overload?

Bubbles · 09-17-2009, 11:26 PM

Whichever you chose. This may help.

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/conten...al-outlet.html

I particularly like the perfectly labeled panel and the 1" of bare conductor he leaves on when rewires the recep. It's always a good idea to run all your current through a 0.32 rec. as well

good luck

bob_cntrctr · 09-18-2009, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celtic

You should become intimately familiar with 406.3(D) before making any decisions.

406.3(D) is the reason for the question.

None of the receptacles actually need replacing, but I'm going to anyway, and so since these outlets close to sinks would require gfci outlets, that's what they're getting, as 406.3(D) requires.

And since 406.3(D) allows gfci's on non-grounded circuits so long as they're properly labelled, (in fact requires them at these locations) that's also what they're getting.

But 406.3(D) only requires that the new outlets be gfci protected. I don't believe it specifies that it must be gfci outlets, only that the receptacles be gfci protected an properly labelled, leaving open the possibility that they could be protected by gfci breakers instead.

bwalley · 09-18-2009, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob_cntrctr

Gentlemen,

I'm dealing with an older place. Ungrounded outlets everywhere, including near sinks. Looking to do a little upgrade to at least gfci protection on outlets near kitchen and bathroom sinks.

I know I can go to gfci outlets IF I label them "No Ground", or I can go to gfci breakers in I label them "No ground" and "gfci protected" - but what are the pros and cons of each?

Breakers - expensive. What else?

Thanks.

Hire a licensed electrician, he will know what to do.

Sparky760 · 09-18-2009, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubbles

Whichever you chose. This may help.

I particularly like the perfectly labeled panel and the 1" of bare conductor he leaves on when rewires the recep. It's always a good idea to run all your current through a 0.32 rec. as well

good luck

Where do you find these people? LOL Pay no attention to that video unless you are looking for exactly what not to do. I almost spit my coffee all over my desk, thank you.

Go with the GFCI devices in the high use areas, Kitchen etc. and GFCI breakers every where else. It is a pain to go outside to reset the breaker all the time.

I've never done this, but I've seen a single ground run just to cover the kitchen outlets as a temporary solution. I suggest re-wiring the house as soon as you can.

JumboJack · 09-18-2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob_cntrctr

OK, thought of one - if there's any knob and tube - ya, it's that old - the unbalanced load on the common return if there's more than one outlet on a circuit and both are used will trip the breaker every time.

That would be a deal breaker.

Celtic · 09-18-2009, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob_cntrctr

But 406.3(D) only requires that the new outlets be gfci protected. I don't believe it specifies that it must be gfci outlets, only that the receptacles be gfci protected an properly labelled, leaving open the possibility that they could be protected by gfci breakers instead.

I agree.
406.3(D)(3)(c) makes that pretty clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2008 NEC

406.3(D)(3) Non–Grounding-Type Receptacles.
Where attachment to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (D)(3)(a), (D)(3)(b), or (D)(3)(c).

(a) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another non–grounding-type receptacle(s).

(b) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.

(c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground fault circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding type receptacles.

Article 406: Receptacles
Oct 1, 2004 12:00 PM, By Mike Holt, NEC Consultant

You might be surprised to learn just how many rules are associated with these simple devices

Interesting one page article in EC&M by Mike Holt.

Celtic · 09-18-2009, 10:35 PM

...to answer the OP's question:
Recept. or CB .... pro/con?

I would *probably* opt for the CB option.

If might cost more....
but having all the GFCI's in one place is the price paid for convenience......
granny isn't going to move the couch, TV, refrigerator, bed...etc.

Who knows exactly where the circuit originates?

Ohmy · 10-06-2009, 12:52 PM

Rewire the house! Why put money into changing up something that's gonna need to be replaced eventually. Here we use breaker except in the bedrooms because we need arch fault breakers.