Electrical Permit

fridaymean

Not to beat a dead horse, but...

If you want reliable, TRUSTOWRTHY people in customers homes, you will need to pay a premium for that. This is where your sales ability could come in. Sell on the fact that the people you bring in are clean, trustworthy etc. Don't sell them on the project at hand, anyone can do that. Sell what is distinguishable!!!

If you do want trustworthy, clean, reliable subs, with which you could build a working relationship, it must be win-win.

This is from experience. We have stoped working for Gens because if we cannot make money working with them, how can we justify being in business? We cannot get our of bed in the morning to loose money.

Hourly rates are often justified. Same with opening prices. (usually prices in general) Most actual contractors I know are doing ok, but they are not rich by any strech.

I would think for time only, a 4hr service call would cost between $550 and $675. That all depends who is there, 2 Jmen or 1 Jman and 1 ap. drive time, etc.

A charge to a contractor with whom more work is possible, or there is a working relationship, of course there would be a "discount." Maybe no charge for driving. We always take care of our Gens!

mahlere

friday, thank you for pointing out the incredible misconception that tradespeople have. If taking care of your gens actually made you money, you would still be working for some of them.

Why is it that we come on here and laugh at HO's that use the old..."if you give me a good price on this one, I have lots of work...." line, yet when a two-bit GC says it, we drop our pants and take the L?

this is not directed at tom by any means...but how many residential renovation GC's have you ever worked for that really know what they are doing? 1? 2? 3? not nearly as many as there are guys who claim to be GC's.

Residential renovations are for the most part, where the bottom of the barrel lives. It's ripe with scammers, hacks, and just complete f-ups. Yet, we cater to them and end up paying the price. Why?

Patrick

WOWWOWOWOWOW So I guess everyone on this board who's not in commercial is a f-up?

mdshunk

Calm down. He certainly has said nothing of the sort. Stop being a trouble-maker.

mahlere

not exactly...

now, please reread it correctly this time..

now, large scale resi new is not without it's issues...but from our years in business, the resi renovation market is full of carpenters who call themselves GC's, yet don't know the 1st thing about running a project. Don't understand scheduling. They have the EC in before the HVAC and plumber. Many are working on a shoestring and you have to hunt them down for money.

Sorry if you took offense, but it's been my experience that most scams that we here about are in the renovation sector. I just choose not to work in that market. So, to anyone in that market that just got offended, look in the mirror. If you are not a scammer, hack or general f-up, then do something about your end of the industry to make it better.

Magnettica

Renovation work (kitchens, baths, basements, additions, add-a-levels) takes far more skill to do than new work projects. I don't think I necessarily agree with renovation workers being at the bottom of the barrel. Ripping out old, installing new, and making absolutely certain that all the existing stuff still works afterwards take real skill. Especially in some of these REALLY old houses in New Jersey.

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mahlere

mag,

not talking about skill level...i agree with you wholeheartedly...

i'm talking about the business sense of the GC's and contractors in that market. Contractors who think subs should work for nothing because it's only residential. EC's, PC's and HVAC's who cater to these GC's and give them discounts because of "future work" only to lose that work to someone cheaper.

I'm talking about guys simply selling on price because they don't know any other way...then cutting every corner in the book to try to make a dollar.

I'm talking about guys taking deposits, then disappearing.

I'm talking about doing a reno job for a GC, then not being able to get paid.

It's the cheapest buy in for any market...therefore it attracts a greater amount of bad seeds (for lack of a better phrase)

But i'm not talking about the skill level to get the work done.

JohnJ0906

I have too agree. I know when I do a reovation project, I will use much more brains then on a new construction house. Not to say I don't think when I do a new house , But I never know what I'll see in an old one. Just when I think I've seen it all......

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John from Baltimore
"One Day at a Time"
All replies based on the 2008 NEC

Patrick

I personally find that the real hacking and scamming goes on in the trades that are the easiest to enter IE have the lowest cost of startup and the least amount of regulation such as painting, handyman work, lawn mowing

mahlere

no disagreement. what's the buy in to be a resi renovation GC?

I should add...up till recently, there were no licensing requirements for GC's in NJ...Now there is only a fine, i mean fee, they have to pay. No testing or education requirements.

Patrick

Im a residential GC However Like TOM M I am on the job working almost every day. Sure I know what you mean about guys that quit their day job and hire someone to do everything like on flip this house or some show. Most GC's in my area though do have some employees that do the majority of the work. I do have an electrician that I always use he has several guys and several stocked trucks, he usually charges me $75/hr plus materials for service calls IE floating meters and such. I wouldn't dare call someone else. Then again he ALWAYS answers his phone and calls me back.

acrwc10

What is a reno job???? sounds like a gamble

Tom M

Wow, this thread turned ridiculous as I should of expected. Now Im a criminal cause I moved a switch and an outlet 3 feet to the left. I must just be a dumb GC who dont know anything. I should just pay an electrician the same as the cost of the door to do that job. Special people--who just blew this minor topic into a violation of there trade.
Thanks for nothing you should have the challanges of a situation like that. In fact try to put that door in, leave and have an electrician and inspector come in, an HVAC, guy come in then go back rock, spackle and trim. Make a week out of an afternnon job and then charge $5,000. HAHAHAHAHAHAH STICK TO COMMERCIAL AND JUST PULL WIRES.

mahlere

it is a gamble


Tom...just cause you don't like what you are hearing, doesn't mean it's wrong. Go into your local town hall and look for the sign that tells you working on anything over 10V requires a license. So, technically, yes...moving a switch without a license makes you a criminal in this state. I didn't make the rule, i'm just telling you what it says.

i have attempted to be nothing but cordial with my answers to your problem. Just because you don't want to follow the law, doesn't mean that we are wrong. talk to the law makers.

but, you do prove my point. you fall right into the carpenter turned GC model. you sell on nothing but price, and in order to compete with the rest of the price sellers, you need to cut corners and violate laws. Now tell me i'm wrong...since your question was

"can a homeowner pull a permit and have me do the electrical work, since i didn't charge enough to hire a competent electrician and the hack i usually use doesn't want to talk to me. So tell me it's ok to violate the law in order to make money"

Tom, you simply asked a question, you got the answers from licensed EC's...everyone gave you the same answer. It wasn't what you wanted, so you got defensive and basically called everyone names. Good luck.

oh, 2 things....1) if that's the amount it takes to do the job right and legally, then yes, you should charge that much and take that long. stop trying to compete on price...you will never win when other guys will work for $50/day and be happy. and 2) you already got caught trying to not file electrical and it's already taken you longer than the week you claim it would take to do it right.

tom, in my time in this industry i have dealt with hundreds of residential gc's, only would actually work for a few. most threw up more red flags than you could imagine. your posts are full of red flags...good luck

macmikeman

Mahlere, I admire your patience with the mindset of the original poster. When it comes to the handy hack carpenters I cannot myself apply such for the words "Do not cast your pearls before the swine" come to mind every time. Wanna see things get even much worse? Wait till the 08 requirement for afci on all 120 branch kicks in. It won't take long for the retards to figure out that their pliers don't blow up so much in their hands anymore. Now they will get even bolder about working electrical. What I don't understand is why Tom M is even returning to defend his position, when his time will be better spent going out to radio shack to purchase some lamp cord to fish into the walls on his door move job. And as far as Junction boxes go, why they cost more and you have to see them, so why not juct bury the twisted and tape connections with no wirenuts behind the drywall? Tom knows what he's doing, why bother hiring one of us at such high rates anyway. We are all crooks. Besides, he's just moving the switch 3 feet to the left. Nothing can go wrong until at least 10 feet of hack wiring is done. This wiring stuff is so easy, I wonder why they pay electricians any money at all. That's the problem with construction contracting. You try to make yourself 50 dollars for a hard weeks work and some crooked electrician wants to charge you a fortune to show up and move a switch 3 feet. What are those damn electricians trying to do, retire someday, with some money in the bank? to that, not while Tom has his say in the matter.

Sam I am

Well said Mac. Tom should have called me....I'm Sam!

Tom M

I should plan a week or so for an electrician to show, organize an inspection time frame then return to spackle and trim a week later. That good business sense. Have the customer take a vacation from work to be available. And charge 5 days of my time while IM on stand by. There is no point arguing with you primidonas. Our customers are regular people like you and me and dont like being raped when they are frequently passing your name around. I am loyal to a guy I have for sometime. I know him for 20yrs and he is only on his own for 3 so I work with him and hope he can work with me thats how the world goes around. We havent been in touch as often lately due to a slow down so I expected to be low man on the totem pole. Sometimes he gets overwhelmed and takes a while to call back I had organized a job weeks in advance and tried to get him but was left in a pinch. Now I am a hack using lamp wire for a run. , should pay double for some extra straight wiring and dont know what Im doing or charging enough. Get off your high horses I asked for an opinion and everyone got nasty. Every electrician I meet doesnt want to do this type of crap, I try to do the right thing.

mdshunk

I find that very hard to believe. In fact, I think I'd be pretty safe by saying that it's a load of crap. Perhaps after talking or meeting with you, they don't want to work for you? Could that be?

What town are you in, anyhow? I'm 1000% certain that I could find a sparky in your area that could be on your job tomorrow.

You are right about one thing, though. Electrician's are a bunch of primadonna's. That's pretty much a given already.

mahlere

if you want to do it legally and correct...then yes.


tom, i have been nothing but cordial with my responses, you however have proven that you are not a GC, but rather a carpenter that can't work for anyone else. see a GC would schedule the EC in the afternoon or the morning following the completion of the framing. then he would schedule with the township to come out an inspect the electrical and the framing according to their procedures..then upon passing inspection, the GC would do the drywall and close everything up. The EC would put in the devices. and you would be done. That's how we do it in the real world.

Let me ask you one thing though...these customers , how do you think they would respond if the township shuts down the job with a stop work order because you did electrical work without a license? How would they react if there was a fire due to a bad wiring connection? How would they react if what you did was incorrect, stopped working a month later, and they had to call an EC out to fix the problem? (at a greater cost than having it done right the first time)

other than that, I agree with MD. I am a primadonna. I bust my ass everyday to run a successful business. If i'm on a jobsite, you'll find me sweeping the floors if need be. But, I have spent years learning my trade and learning how to run a business, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna work for peanuts because some two bit-carpenter-playing GC can't sell a job at the right price, then can't schedule the job, then want's me to save his ass. That my friend, is why i'll but, when you can wire up a 2000A 480V MDP with 25 panelboards, transformers, control circuits, pumps, RTU's, clean power,dirty power, TVSS's, etc...then you may comment on commercial electrical wiring. Until then, I will continue to read your posts with amusement...because I don't think you "get it" or will you for quite a while.

electricguy

I am Glad British Columbia is finally doing an Electrical safety Campaign and yes maybe its time the homeowner knows that reno contractors can not do electrical without a licensed contractor to pull the permit . sure get the homeowner to pull it and pretend the reno contractor didnt help for payment.
I cant understand whats wrong ... here there reno contractors add 25 percent to the electricians bill. thats not a bad profit.