Electrical Permit

acrwc10

What makes you think His price is so out of line??? He is avalible to do the job and not "MIA" maybe the law of supply and demand is at work here. Do you really think commercial work takes more skill the residential ? Different maybe but the work still takes a quallified person to do it. By the time you add in all the factors $500 dollars for 2 guys, a stocked truck , burden, just how much profit do you think is in this for an EC? Or wait for your guy , who is most likely not calling you because you don't pay much

Magnettica

Yeah, I'm sorry you disagree, Tom. Why is it that people argue about how much money they shouldn't be charging? It's like they don't want to make money and live comfortably. Maybe this electrician is not the one that will cater to your needs because of his costs. But maybe twenty years from now he'll be the only one you can count on to do the work that you'll demand from your subs. It's a free market and people have to decide for themselves who gets paid what. I'd have it no other way frankly.

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RobertWilber

I think that is a generous offer on the ECs part for two guys.
Like otherwise said, you have materials, travel, and that half day has blown the day for his two men, who will not want to go home after lunch [without pay]. The guy is probably just covering his costs for the day to help you out of a jam [mistakenly hoping you will be suitably grateful].

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Philadelphia electrician

macmikeman

The way I see it the problem here is that there is only 240 and 120 volt wiring in residential work. Carpenters/general contractors who do mostly commercial work have much more respect for electricians than those typical house builders do. There is a reason for that. The house builder types think that they understand and know how electrical work is done because they observed the electrician on a few occasions, and managed to hackwire up a light or two when no one was looking, and now feel that they have it all down. The commercial guys also tried to save a few bucks by hacking in the electric on some job, but then connected themselves into the 277 volt light circuit, and got the type of shock that brings respect back to the electrician where it belongs. Most commercial general contractors or carpenters will not mess around with the wiring out of those types of experiences. Therefore commercial electrical work is higher paying work. My guess is that the original poster falls into the house builder type. There needs to be a change to the typical grid voltage supplied to houses in North America, to a much more lethal level, thereby ensuring a proper amount of respect for those people (the electricians) who actually know what the F_ _ k they are doing. And it would save on copper costs and help Al Gore save the planet, because the electricians know less copper is required in the conductors at a higher voltage, and we wouldn't have to always contend with lowering our pricing down to a point that keeps uneducated dolts who do not understand basic business principles happy.

Tom M

This goes back to another issue. I dont have the luxury of sending an electrician to a house for an estimate I am bidding on in advance. They probably wouldnt show anyway. Electricians work for GC cause the work is already there for them, commercial or new work is preferred cause its to hard to make money fishing wire through existing work. You cant say ***x amount then go back and say I need ***xx more cause it took longer, sometimes yes but most of the time not. What do I do when only a GFI is needed for a deck or a simply circiut throw a grand on the job for something so small. You guys need to realize that. But no one wants to be bothered. I have always paid whatever the guy I used requested. Our only difference is when the bill is very different than predicted. I have been slow so I lost some of the courtisy I normally get from my guy, its not my fault out of sight out of mind. The cockiness of some of you guys is terrible, I remember subs calling me for work when they slow down, what comes around goes around. None of you spend afternoons sitting with clients for hours trying to predict all there needs competetively and proffessionaly.

mdshunk

You're using the wrong kind of electrician... plain and simple. There are electricians who do your type of work. Sounds like you're getting construction electricians to do your remodel work. You've been barking up the wrong tree all along.

acrwc10

1) believe it or not some of us do give estimates for our work, and only change the price if the scope of work changes.

2) electricians work for GC's because they need our help, If you want to give up your profit margin let the Home Owner call the subs and deal with them.

3) Maybe everthing isn't as "easy" as you think and that is why you don't price it correctly. If a grand is what it will cost you then add 15% on top of it.

4) Get used to it. The number of guys becomming electricians is far behind the demand for them. Expect this to cause an increase in cost.

5) Sitting with the client should be reflected in YOUR price. A fact of the profession you chose no one held a gun to your head and said go into contracting, If they did thank them and QUIT WHINING

mahlere

welp, i'm having fun reading these posts, so i figured i'd waste everyone's time and chime in.

it's funny how we tend to project our thoughts, feelings, wants, emotions, etc onto others. it's the same thought process of driving in the left lane on the highway...you come up on a guy who's driving slower and he's an a-hole for slowing up traffic in the left lane...a little while later, someone catches up to you from behind, and he's an a-hole for speeding and tailgaiting. does that make sense?


to the OP, we spent years doing that exact type of work. But, here is the rub, I needed to make $1000/day/truck. And guess what, I made $1000/day/truck. If you didn't want to pay me, your competitor would. And he would finish his project and make his customer happy, while you are wasting two weeks of their life over $200. Doesn't really make sense, does it?

If the walls are open, it's a minimum 2 trips (1 to rough, 1 to finish)

I think macmike was on the right track. There is a definite thought process that residential work was easy...I know that we have an easier time finding commercial electricians than we ever did finding residential guys.

add into that the cost of living. Tom, if I am correct, you are in NJ. I'm not sure what part, but here in central NJ, you need to earn $70,000 just to live comfortably. That means, for me to have decent guys working for me, I better find a way to pay them close to $70K yr. The only way I can do that is to charge enough to my customers.

It just seems to me that 1/2 of the posts on this board are guys complaining that they can't charge enough, and the other 1/2 of the posts are guys complaining that their subs want to charge them too much.

man, what a hapless cycle.

mahlere

then you better find an electrician who you can build a relationship with...cause if you want to estimate electrical, then find a sub...you will be in this exact position alot.

tom, no offense, but from most of your posts that I have seen, you seem like a real "glass is half empty" type of guy, and if that is the case, trust me, your subs feel it too. I know that we won't work for a GC who thinks that way. Life is too short.

Tom M

MD, Your probably right I need to types of guys a semi retired for the endless need for small tasks and a larger guy for the bigger remodels. If I come off as half full and Im sorry but It has been a frustrating year for me. I have put in countless hours of estimating with customers that are online getting information. The low ball estimates and tire kickers are relentless these days. Now I pick up work and my electrician cant even call back. I leave three messages weeks in advance---IF your to busy let me know so I can get someone else. Not even a response. Its not whining about price it aggrevating how everyone throws around numbers, none consistant. So I should be happy? Every electrician I meet dont want residential they do on occasion. Must be nice to pick and choose I have had that luxury in a couple of years. I shouldnt have to pay three times the amount for a more proffessional operation just to get a regular response. I will always be too high on estimates.

mahlere

tom,

let me ask a simple question....if your competition (and god i hate using that word, since we are all in this mess together) is hiring subs from the proverbial same pool, where does the difference come in?

also, we've walked from every contractor that has called us out of the blue and said "I have a job, we need a price, our budget is...." in every case, they have a fixed contract and the budget is what they figured the electric should cost. it's always less than what I figure the electric should cost.

I will say this, every day we price jobs and have our prices cut in 1/2 by trunkslammers, semi retireds, moonlighters, etc...we still get enough work. It's all how you sell it.

Do yourself a favor and look into guys like Zig Zigler...learning how to sell will make a huge difference. And if you are always losing work to a lower price, you are not selling.

acrwc10

If you pay 1/3 the going rate, expect 1/3 the service.

Tom M

I wish it were that easy. I lost 5 lucrative jobs last year on cost. I took in a partner for some projects cause he is building several homes a year and has good subs. The mechanical subs came in thousands cheaper than the quotes I recieved from guys. I still came in to high on the bids using his subs. I wish I can employee people at their cost and still work myself but its very competitve vicious cycle. Electric is electric every day all day. No offense here but wheres the sales skill? There is hundreds of tile products, cabinets, decking, roofing,siding all installed differently, all priced differently so its not easy. If I was landing one job after another and I used MAHLERE Electric and I missed quote on something Im sure you would work with me, im sure you would be calling back with every call I made to you also. Its a viscous cycle especially these days and I cant provide that amount of work.

mahlere

this post is not directed at tom...but rather at all contractors...

if you want to pay McDonald's prices, you get McDonald's service...

if you want Morton's service, you have to pay Morton's prices...

If you are a steak eater and don't know what Morton's is, you don't charge enough (unless you are from overseas, then I don't know the equivilent)

mahlere

tom,

my only response is this...

1) you sound like my father, so I feel ya.

2) there is work out there, we get more every day...

3) not every job goes on price alone...

4) there are guys who are larger than us, and charge way more than us, doing strictly residential work. If it was only about price, they would be out of business...

Tom M

My original post is not whos worth what? Its was how ridculous it is to get someone to do a small thing. I dont care how much as long as I am prepared. I know Im going to get slammed if I CALL OUT OF THE BOOK. I cant sell a Macdonalds pitch of quality electric to a homeowner for a couple of simple ciruits. Lets be real. Thats why I asked if it was worth having them sign off a permit. I wouldnt attempt most electrical things cause IM NOT AN ELECTRICIAN I just need to get things done sometimes at a reasonble rate.

Tom M

When I put a sliding door in some of these things come into play just like moveing a wall register to the floor. I dont call HVAC contractor to move a floor difuser I do it. Can you imagine if it were freezing out or hot as hell I would never get someone at a realist price.

acrwc10

The arguement you'r using is silly. It is the same as the guy that hires all illegal allians because legitimate guys are too expensive. There will always be some one cheaper, it doesn't make everyone equal.

mdshunk

That would make you a criminal in many jurisdictions.

mahlere

ok...reasonable is a relative term...what's reasonable to me is what I need to pay my insurance, trucks, payroll, office, telephones, advertising, etc.

now, why do you assume you will get slammed if you call out of the book? we have had advertising, we don't slam people, however, we charge what we need to to make it worth our while.

If a guy can not get enough to make it worth his while, you will have a heck of a time getting someone out there.

now, for your specific situation...let's see if I have this straight.

you are wondering why you can not get contractor pricing, or a guy who will give you contractor's pricing to call you back....and in lieu of that, should you have the homeowner pull the permit, and you do the work?

that's about the scope of it, right?

1) in NJ it's now a 4th degree felony to do electrical work without a license. Fines and possible jail time. Odds of getting caught? don't know. guess it depends on how protective the EC's in your area are of their work.

2) I sincerely hope you are not expecting an EC to take an L and give you a break when you can not guarantee a volume of work. Most GC's get a discount not because the work is waiting, but because they provide a volume of work to allow a contractor to build his business.

3) you have a couple of legal options. Take a few lumps and pay your subs what you have to in order to have happy customers and build your business back up. I mean, you might have to make less money on a job to match prices and still get the work.

or

don't include the electrical in your contract. Let the HO hire their own EC.

4) Tom, good luck. i don't think that you will be having much luck in the near future. the margins are getting smaller and the market is getting tighter. If you are simply pricing jobs, then you will constantly be competing against the bottom feeders that are beating you now. You need to figure out a way to differentiate yourself from them. Do a search on "Sonny Lykos" and start reading. Read whatever you can find by "Jerrald Hayes". You will see some other names pop up with them, read those too. You are in a bad way, and nothing will change so long as you keep doing what you are doing.