Electrical Help In Kitchen Remodel

not2late

First post. Been lurking for awhile.

I remodel kitchens and have one coming up that has a problem I haven't run into before.

The walls are brick with approximately 1/2" of plaster/stucco applied to them to give a smooth interior wall finish. No furring strips and drywall. The house was built right around 1925. Slab construction with attic access.

How will the electrician run the nm cable for the required countertop circuits? The wall cabinets will run to the ceilings (96") with crown to finish at the top. I want to make sure that everything that will help him out will be done at time of cabinet install. Will wiremold and surface mount boxes work with the nm fed down through the ceiling between the cabinets (not inside the cabinets). Homeowner does not want the original plaster/stucco damaged if possible. Have talked to the electrician and explained the problems. He seems a little stumped on this one also.

Can the countertop receptacles be mounted on the underside of the wall cabinets? Not sure of code on this as I am not an electrician. Just want to have knowledge and options available to talk this through with the homeowner and our electrician.

Thanks for any help you can give on this.

Magnettica

Not sure I have ever seen kitchen countertop receptacles mounted underneath the cabinet before. But as far as 210.52 (C)(5) goes, it says as long as they're not more than 20" above the countertop, then you're good to go. Don't forget the GFCI protection, of course. One time I had a boss make cut a piece of plugmold into a 6" section and mount it under the cabinet to comply to with a penisula requirement. It really looked like *****. I wouldn't have wanted that in my house. That's for sure.

B-MAN

We install plugmold below the upper cabinets on most of our high-end kitchen remodels. It isn't the easiest thing to do but it sure looks nice not having receptacles on the wall. Plug mold is available in lt. almond, white, black and stainless steel.

RobertWilber

That's nice that the homeowner doesn't want the existing finish damaged.
I always wanted to walk on the moon before I die ....
I guess you could run plugmold all the way around under the cabinets, could even use multiple-chase wireway so you could pull in cable, computer, phone, etc...
We get a lot of these old plaster over brick jobs here in Philadelphia.
When people don't want wiremold or the like, I have ended up with a grinder and cutting blade, notching the brick and replastering behind.
I use EMT and 1900s w/ plaster rings.
Works a treat.
You could always do the wiring on the back side of the wall ... [talk about ugly] ... maybe the guy is interested in the new techno-industrial look ... rigid conduit, explosion proof fitting ... [tee hee]

oh yeah, let the electrician get done before you install the cabinets.

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mdshunk

Plaster right on the brick is very common in my areas also for the exterior walls. It's either Wiremold, Plugmold, or EMT on the surface, or slot the plaster and run EMT in the groove and have the kitchen guy plaster the grooves back. The homeowner is goofy, not wanting to disturb the finish, but that's just my opinion based on how easily it is to fix.

Be advised that if the IECC applies to this job, you'll need to fur that wall out anyhow to insulate.

I use the Hitachi wall slotter to make the grooves in paster-on-brick, so that I can collect the dust instead of eating it.

Sparky Joe

My brother in law (general contractor) recently sent me pics of an immaculate kitchen he did.
I sent a reply saying he failed code for lack of receptacles on the countertops (I didn't see one).
He sent a reply saying they were attached to the bottom of the upper cabinets because the customer didn't want to see them in their backsplash.
I don't know how he installed them, but it made for a very nice finished look

mdshunk

If they're within 20" above the countertop, they count at countertop receptacles. The inspector probably just didn't notice them, and red tagged it. I've often run Plugmold (Wiremold 2000) tight up against the uppers when the customer didn't want to see the recs. It's a nice, slick install, but 2000 series stuff is expensive.

Same Old

I have them installed directly to the underside of the cab. We cut a slot in the sidewall of the cabinets (where they meet each other) right against the backwall to fit the mold tight in the recess on the underside of the cabinet. The plug mold faces down.

Eddy Current

I've never seen that either. Not allowed where I'm from. (Canada) Our code reads; 26-712 (d)(iii)
There shall be installed in each kitchen a sufficient number of receptacles(15amp split or 20amp T-slot) ALONG THE WALL behind counter work surfaces so that no point along the wall line is more than 900mm from a receptacle

Same Old

It is along the wall. The plug mould goes right against the back wall of the cabinet. What's wrong with that? It looks great.

Magnettica

Well to each their own. Maybe the plugmold method will become somewhat of a trend in the coming years. Who knows?

But consider this. Everytime someone wants to plug something into a countertop receptacle, they'll have to bend down to look up under the cabinet to plug something in. It's not that big a deal, I understand that, but it is something to consider.

mdshunk

When I do Plugmold, I don't do it upside down. I jam it right up tight against the bottom of the cupboards, though. Sometimes I'll hold it down an inch or so in case there's wall warts to plug in.

Magnettica

In other words... you attach it to the wall, not the cabinet, correct?

mdshunk

I do, but it can be upside down on the bottom of the upper cabinet and still be legal. Uppers are almost always installed 18" off the countertop, so as long as those recs are within 20" above the countertop, you're legal (in the US). When people ask for Plugmold, they often want a lot of recs so they can leave everything plugged in all the time anyhow. Handicapped kitchens often have plugmold right under the front edge of the countertop, along the front, right above the drawer and door fronts of the lowers.

mdcorreia

I have not wired a new kitchen for a long time. How does one provide a plug at a simple kit. island with no backing border? ok in the front? (in the front only ok for hadicap people right?)

Magnettica

Usually through the basement and up into the cabinetry with either MC or AC cable. It has to be GFCI protected and cannot be under a countertop overhang where people might sit on stools and accidentally bump into electrical cords from appliances in use.

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mickeyco

(5) Receptacle Outlet Location Receptacle outlets shall
be located above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above,
the countertop. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible
by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages,
sinks, or rangetops as covered in 210.52(C)(1), Exception,
or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered
as these required outlets.

Exception to (5): To comply with the conditions specified
in (1) or (2), receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be
mounted not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the countertop.
Receptacles mounted below a countertop in accordance
with this exception shall not be located where the
countertop extends more than 150 mm (6 in.) beyond its
support base.

(1) Construction for the physically impaired

(2) On island and peninsular countertops where the countertop
is flat across its entire surface (no back splashes, dividers, etc.)
and there are no means to mount a receptacle within 500 mm (20 in.)
above the countertop, such as an overhead cabinet


NEC 2005

Sparky Joe

I think you got that wrong Mag.

Width means left to right, not front to back that would be the definition of depth.

Without drawing the pictures I'll say a counter space 'wider' than 12 inches needs a receptacle, i.e. your sink is less than 12 inches from your fridge would not require a receptacle.

From your drawings, I'd say an inspector is an idiot if he required a receptacle BEHIND a sink.



Edit; I noticed you got that picture from Mike Holt's site, so instead I'll call him wrong and forward the picture to my teacher to see what he thinks(he loves to challenge Holt).

mickeyco

I think it's right, it's about islands not a countertop on a wall. Essentially what it's showing is how many outlets are required on an island and what makes an island (or turns a single island requiring one receptacle into "two islands" requiring 2 receptacles). It would appear if you install an appliance, sink or whatever, that has less than 1 foot behind it, the island becomes two islands requiring a receptacle for each side. It's not about spacing it's about the distance from the back of the appliance, sink or what have you, to the back side of the island. I'm pretty sure on this one but I'll wait for a ruling from MD.

mdshunk

Maryland does not have any changes to the base text, with regard to kitchen islands.

No man is an island.