Do You Need AFCI On Service Upgrade In NY?

jimb317

I have to upgrade a 100a service to 200a. Do I need to protect the bedroom circuits with AFCI's? I am from NY state.

krthomp33

I would say yes. Since you are going with a "new" service, it will probably be required, but as always, check with the "Authority having jurisdiction".

It may also be required to do more than the bedrooms, as one inspector told me, "Any livable space required AFCI protection"

ATS

I always upgrade to AFCI's when replacing a panel or upgrading a service. As far as I understand it, any bedroom outlet, smokes included, must be AFCI protected. I would do this even if the inspector did not require it because they're still using old books.

CE1

Look at these posts it will answer you question.

http://www.contractortalk.com/showth...ervice+upgrade

Speedy Petey

NO, you do not need to install AFCIs for a service upgrade. The above posts are OPINION only, and not based on NYSRBC facts.

The service has nothing to do with branch circuits, and AFCIs are only required for NEW branch circuits. Some areas do have a rule to install them for upgrades but NY is NOT one of them.


krthomp33,

"It may also be required to do more than the bedrooms, as one inspector told me, "Any livable space required AFCI protection"

Is this an actual code in your area or does your inspector like to make up his own?

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fridaymean

Doesn't the 2005 NEC require that any panel or service uprade needs to also have AFCI's installed on all bedroom circuits now. A smoke detector is not an outlet, it is directly wired.

Speedy Petey

Absolutely not. A service upgrade does NOT affect the branch circuits.
Local codes may differ.


The box a smoke is connected to is most definitely an outlet. Read the definition of "outlet" in Art.100.

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BIGRED

Tell 'em Petey!

CE1

I have a question to all. In your area of the country is there any AHJ that requires a full or partial house rewire if the main service is changed? Common sense would dictate that you would try to talk the customer into having it done with the service change. I have fallowed up behind a lot of just service change overs where somebody is just out for a quick buck and doesn't want to deal with the rest of the house.

ATS

Direct wired or not, it's still an outlet. An outlet is not a receptacle, although the terms are commonly confused. A box for a light is also considered an outlet.

ATS

Exactly! Better contact your AHJ, local codes may be stricter than the NEC.

krthomp33

The argument that I got was that the living room can be used as a bedroom, all they needed was a fold out couch, and it becomes a bedroom.

I argued for about 20 minutes, but let the inspector have their way. Better to maintain a good relationship, than to piss of the inspector!!

Speedy Petey

See, now I almost take exception to this statement. How can you possibly say someone who does "just" a service upgrade is out for a quick buck???

A service upgrade is one of the bread and butter jobs in our trade. Of course we try to get more work out of doing one, but to suggest a whole house re-wire because of a service change is most times ludicrous. I guess most houses you do service changes on are POS fix-er-uppers. Most of the ones I do are perfectly fine with electrical systems in good shape, they just need a new service. Of course many need an extra circuit in the kitchen or bathroom, etc, which we would all try to have the customer do, but this does not even come close to justifying a complete re-wire.
Then there are the complete gut reno's with a service and re-wire.

Just MHO.

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Speedy Petey

What a comletety LAME argument! A LR is a LR and BR is a BR. Look at the definitions in the building code book.


If he cannot show it to me in the code book it doesn't get done. I guess this is my stubborn German side coming out.
I guess I am lucky to have inspectors with common sense and who are reasonable. It is distressing to hear about so many who are on power trips and make up their own personal requirements.

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theman

Speedy you are right BUT (i'm opening a can of worms)
when you do an electrical upgrade a permit is required N.Y.S. Code

Speedy Petey

Actually an inspection is required, a permit is not...in most areas.
I have heard of some small municipalities that do require a building permit to do a service change.

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fridaymean

The box a smoke is connected to is most definitely an outlet. Read the definition of "outlet" in Art.100.[/QUOTE]

....Then I guess EVERY inspector in EVERY munincipality in the Chicago land area has to reread article 100. There was one inspector that was going to require us to put the smokes/cos on an arc fault, but rethought it. And this town is STRICT they require sprinkler systems in all new housing. We have never been required, or even asked, to put smokes on an arc fault.

Speedy Petey

NEC 100
Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
An example is a lighting outlet or a receptacle outlet.



A smoke is utilization equipment, is it not?


I'm not saying your inspectors are right or wrong in requiring smokes on AFCI. In fact I think it is ludicrous to have smokes on AFCIs.
I am saying they are wrong in thier interpretation if they are saying a box a smoke is attached to, and fed from, is not an outlet.

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fridaymean

I agree with you speedy, it is dumb. The main intent or AFCI's and why the local enfocement officers have been pushing for them, results from the number of fires in bedrooms that were caused by improper use of extension cords, or just "equipment" with a cord. Too often cords get abused and they fray, or the ends go bad.

ATS

Sprinkler systems in all new homes?! Good lord, what's next, the government forcing their citizens to buy health insurance? Oh yeah, that's already starting. I would think if any area mandated smokes be on arc faults it would be Chicago, that's surprising.