Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

hbelectric · 11-19-2008, 01:40 AM

I'm running 80-240v servers, using 3 load centers and 3 sub-panels. 120/240 service with a high leg. 2 of the panels will only have 2-pole breakers, dedicated for the servers. All outlets are 220 3-wire.

The 3rd panel will be used for any 120v circuits. I will be saving $500 in wire, to not run a Nuetral. Should I run the Neutral? Why or why not?
The rooms are being built specific for the servers and will most likely be torn down after tenant leaves, so I'm not really concerned about future.

MALCO.New.York · 11-19-2008, 01:59 AM

Is there not a Phase issue here??? And I imagine that depends upon the Source of the Branch. I know not. That is why I ask.

hbelectric · 11-19-2008, 02:13 AM

Service is 3 phase 4wire, my subs will be the same. I'm not postive what your asking?

MALCO.New.York · 11-19-2008, 02:20 AM

"Phase Bumping" an issue?

hbelectric · 11-19-2008, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MALCO.New.York

"Phase Bumping" an issue?

I haven't heard of this in years and i've never come across this issue, to understand.

MALCO.New.York · 11-19-2008, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbelectric

I haven't heard of this in years and i've never come across this issue, to understand.

I really do not either. But I hope someone chimes in to assist you and me in the answers.

hbelectric · 11-19-2008, 02:45 AM

I think your trying to freak me out haa.

MALCO.New.York · 11-19-2008, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbelectric

I think your trying to freak me out haa.

AtlRemodeling · 11-19-2008, 05:59 AM

Hb,

Why not ask your buddy from the electrical department at Home Depot? He should be able to give you a real solid answer!

Bubbles · 11-19-2008, 07:46 AM

Not really sure of total story. No neutral for servers? No lights? 3 phase? Anyhow, all I know is it's way cheaper to pull an extra conductor now then later. You can use it or lose it (bond it at one end for inductance) if not needed. Don't listen to you customer. Add a conductor. That's my vote. How long is run? Aluminum here is only $1 ft for 2/0 XHHW

Celtic · 11-19-2008, 08:03 AM

What does the one-line show?

If it shows a neutral, you'd better install it or talk them into not installing it, get a change order signed [maybe even credit them].

A different question is:
Is a neutral required "per NEC"?
No it isn't.

Magnettica · 11-19-2008, 03:18 PM

How will you get 120 volts to ground without a neutral conductor and without violating 250.6?

walkerj · 11-19-2008, 06:54 PM

In the OP:
He will be running three feeders.
All servers are straight 240v.
One panel will serve lights and outlets, and it will get a neutral.
Neutral is only required to service equipment.
Also, if no current is flowing back on the neutral, then it won't help cancel out any magnetic fields.

hbelectric · 11-19-2008, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlRemodeling

Hb,

Why not ask your buddy from the electrical department at Home Depot? He should be able to give you a real solid answer!

I think he's is busy trying to comprehend yesterdays lesson.

hbelectric · 11-19-2008, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walkerj

In the OP:
He will be running three feeders.
All servers are straight 240v.
One panel will serve lights and outlets, and it will get a neutral.
Neutral is only required to service equipment.
Also, if no current is flowing back on the neutral, then it won't help cancel out any magnetic fields.

Thanks for actually reading the post.

hbelectric · 11-19-2008, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnettica

How will you get 120 volts to ground without a neutral conductor and without violating 250.6?

The lighting and 120v outlet panel will have a Nuetral, good stuff.

nap · 11-19-2008, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celtic

A different question is:
Is a neutral required "per NEC"?
No it isn't.

in some cases it is. I would have to look up the requirements as to when you must pull a neut, even when not intending to use it but it is there somwhere.
I just don;t remember offhand what the requirements are but I do remember it somewhere.

hbelectric · 11-20-2008, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nap

in some cases it is. I would have to look up the requirements as to when you must pull a neut, even when not intending to use it but it is there somwhere.
I just don;t remember offhand what the requirements are but I do remember it somewhere.

Honestly i haven't looked in the NEC, i've seen many 3 phase 3 wire panels( no neutral). But most of these applications are motors/machinery load panels.

I guess i'm not asking about codes, but I will look in the NEC tonight. I would like to know do I need a nuetral? The neutral will not be bonded or used , in the panel. The Nuetral has no application.

About running Alluminum wire on a thread above. I rarely use it, I guess it was the way i was trained, we just always used copper( of course copper was cheaper then. . I already ran the conduit, so i'm not sure it will fit, but i will atleast look in the nec.

Celtic · 11-20-2008, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nap

in some cases it is. I would have to look up the requirements as to when you must pull a neut, even when not intending to use it but it is there somwhere.
I just don;t remember offhand what the requirements are but I do remember it somewhere.

You be sure and post your findings when you locate that info.

...we'll still be here

thom · 11-20-2008, 10:19 AM

My $.02

The 220V circuits, as long as the plugs/receptacles for the servers don't have a neutral connection there is no point in running the neutral. In fact, a neutral would be an unused conductor and should not be installed.

The three phase "wild leg" thing would be an issue with a 110V circuit on that leg. Generally the voltage fluctuation happens only when a single leg (phase) is used. Pairing up phases as in a 220V application should stabilize the wild leg.

You should be fine but do a voltage check across each pair of phases then insure that the servers will operate properly on that voltage (208? 220?).

11-19-2008, 01:40 AM	#1
hbelectric View Profile hbelectric huntington beach, ca. Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (362) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity huntington beach, ca. Trade: electrical Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 362	Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center? I'm running 80-240v servers, using 3 load centers and 3 sub-panels. 120/240 service with a high leg. 2 of the panels will only have 2-pole breakers, dedicated for the servers. All outlets are 220 3-wire. The 3rd panel will be used for any 120v circuits. I will be saving $500 in wire, to not run a Nuetral. Should I run the Neutral? Why or why not? The rooms are being built specific for the servers and will most likely be torn down after tenant leaves, so I'm not really concerned about future. Last edited by hbelectric; 11-19-2008 at 02:15 AM.

11-19-2008, 01:59 AM	#2
MALCO.New.York View Profile MALCO.New.York Handle It! Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (9,384) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Handle It! Trade: Everything The Union Guys Do Not Want To Do Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brooklyn, NY ~ Haverford, PA Posts: 9,384	Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center? Is there not a Phase issue here??? And I imagine that depends upon the Source of the Branch. I know not. That is why I ask. __________________ Something to One may be Nothing to another! Ultimate Wisdom--------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW-cnizLDEE

11-19-2008, 02:13 AM	#3
hbelectric View Profile hbelectric huntington beach, ca. Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (362) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity huntington beach, ca. Trade: electrical Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 362	Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center? Service is 3 phase 4wire, my subs will be the same. I'm not postive what your asking?

11-19-2008, 02:20 AM	#4
MALCO.New.York View Profile MALCO.New.York Handle It! Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (9,384) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Handle It! Trade: Everything The Union Guys Do Not Want To Do Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brooklyn, NY ~ Haverford, PA Posts: 9,384	Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center? "Phase Bumping" an issue? __________________ Something to One may be Nothing to another! Ultimate Wisdom--------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW-cnizLDEE

11-19-2008, 02:45 AM	#7
hbelectric View Profile hbelectric huntington beach, ca. Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (362) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity huntington beach, ca. Trade: electrical Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 362	Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center? I think your trying to freak me out haa.

How to effectively use customer testimonials - even if you onl...

Green Framing Presentation - Updated

Greenlee Glo-Stix...

DeWalt Self-Level...

Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center?

Join Now... It's Fast and FREE!

Already Have an Account?

11-19-2008, 05:59 AM	#9
AtlRemodeling View Profile AtlRemodeling Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (380) Photos (44) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Residential Remodeling Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Suwanee, Georgia Posts: 380	Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center? Hb, Why not ask your buddy from the electrical department at Home Depot? He should be able to give you a real solid answer!

11-19-2008, 07:46 AM	#10
Bubbles View Profile Bubbles Master Electrician Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (428) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Master Electrician Trade: Electrical Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Midwest Posts: 428	Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center? Not really sure of total story. No neutral for servers? No lights? 3 phase? Anyhow, all I know is it's way cheaper to pull an extra conductor now then later. You can use it or lose it (bond it at one end for inductance) if not needed. Don't listen to you customer. Add a conductor. That's my vote. How long is run? Aluminum here is only $1 ft for 2/0 XHHW

11-19-2008, 08:03 AM	#11
Celtic View Profile Celtic Fentoozler Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (5,585) Photos (6) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Fentoozler Trade: Professional Pie and Pastry Taster Join Date: May 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,585	Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center? What does the one-line show? If it shows a neutral, you'd better install it or talk them into not installing it, get a change order signed [maybe even credit them]. A different question is: Is a neutral required "per NEC"? No it isn't. __________________ The UD is quite possibly man kinds finest accomplishment.

11-19-2008, 03:18 PM	#12
Magnettica View Profile Magnettica Service & Repairs Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (3,998) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Service & Repairs Trade: Electrician Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Rahway, New Jersey Posts: 3,998	Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center? How will you get 120 volts to ground without a neutral conductor and without violating 250.6?

11-19-2008, 06:54 PM	#13
walkerj View Profile walkerj Member Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (43) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Member Trade: Electrical Join Date: May 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 43	Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center? In the OP: He will be running three feeders. All servers are straight 240v. One panel will serve lights and outlets, and it will get a neutral. Neutral is only required to service equipment. Also, if no current is flowing back on the neutral, then it won't help cancel out any magnetic fields.

11-20-2008, 10:19 AM	#20
thom View Profile thom Thom Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (3,197) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Thom Trade: General Contractor/Homebuilder Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Albuquerque NM Posts: 3,197	Re: Do I Need To Run A Nuetral To Load Center? My $.02 The 220V circuits, as long as the plugs/receptacles for the servers don't have a neutral connection there is no point in running the neutral. In fact, a neutral would be an unused conductor and should not be installed. The three phase "wild leg" thing would be an issue with a 110V circuit on that leg. Generally the voltage fluctuation happens only when a single leg (phase) is used. Pairing up phases as in a 220V application should stabilize the wild leg. You should be fine but do a voltage check across each pair of phases then insure that the servers will operate properly on that voltage (208? 220?).

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread:

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Removing a section from load bearing walls	wilsongc	Remodeling	16	11-01-2008 11:04 AM
Load and Haul Crews needed in Texas.	mcguirerc	Help Wanted or Looking For Work	0	09-23-2008 05:41 PM
Identifying load bearing wall	1stchoice	Framing	25	05-12-2008 06:27 PM
removing a none load bearing wall??	samiam	Framing	7	09-12-2007 08:33 AM