CA Title 24 Presence Detectors

Brendakeen

Does anyone know of a less expensive alternative to the Wattstopper CN100? I like them, they pass inspections as they allow the 60 sec reentry period where the lights come back on when someone comes back in and are programmable to the 2 minute off time - but they are $100 each.

I have a homeowner that wants these instead of dimmers - and just don't want to throw away profit margin for bathroom switches!

For you guys outside of California - better look at Title 24 as I have heard rumors other states are planning to adopt it....

Speedy Petey

If they do I'm moving to Canada. California can take it's crazy ass rules and stick them.
They are forcing you to use occ sensors? In a home?

Occ sensors, CF lamps, etc all have their place. Just because Cali can't manage it's power, water & pollution doesn't mean other areas need to adopt it's totalitarian rules.
I voluntarily use energy efficient material when I can. I use occ sensors in commercial bathrooms all the time. I use dimmers everywhere. I use HID and fluorescent when I can.
DO NOT force me though.


BTW, I have to ask. You say your customer wants them instead of dimmers? Why would your profit margin go out the window then?
I assume dimmers are in the contract (or agreed upon). So then this is a change. They pay the difference.
DO NOT eat the cost difference yourself.

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Brendakeen

But I didn't specify which OCC sensors!

California requires that either fluorescent fixtures OR either dimmers or OCC sensors (with incandescents) be used in kitchens and bathrooms. Fluorescent fixtures are ugly and they hum, so most customers don't want them.

And that is only PART of the ridiculously long and tedious spec that is Title 24. It also controls the ratio of window to wall you can have to limit solar drains on AC, does not allow you to use an electric furnace or water heater, specifies radiant barrier be used before applying roofing materials,etc etc etc.

I agree - California has become a totalitarian state. I moved here originally from Ohio, and felt like I had moved to a foreign country.

Speedy Petey

From the outside looking in that is exactly what it looks like.

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Brendakeen

I DID bid this but was looking for ways to boost profit margin as we are losing money on this job as the homeowner changed their mind on the tile after we put it in. We did a change order, but it delayed draw checks which cost us.

I did find these devices elsewhere at $45 a pop, but they have a lead time and I need to go over and do this tomorrow if possible as the homeowner husband is pushing us hard to finish, as if it was our fault his wife changed her mind on the tile

mahlere

I'm not following, if you gave a price for dimmers, but the customer wanted Sensors, take the price of the device, mark it up and make money on the transaction.

If they changed tiles, after they were installed, it not only should not have delayed a draw, it should have gotten you a check for the change order on the spot.

You may want to do some research on this contracting thing. My gut feeling is that neither you nor your husband have much business background.

Good luck, but I think you are missing the boat.

Sparky Joe

California has always had crazy rules, I remember one being the first switch to a kitchen or bath had to operate a flourescent fixture, but who wants flourescent in their house?

We always gerry rigged something to make the inspector happy then change it to make the customer happy when he's gone. That would be my suggestion. Most the time the inspector knew whats up, but didn't care as long as we made the effort.

Speedy Petey

I have compact fluor lamps all over. I love 'em.

It's the thought of being forced to use them that get's me riled.

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mdshunk

My laundry room has a 4 lamp T8 cloud light. It does a fine job in there. My living room has fluorescent cove lighting. I think it is nice. Wife never complained. I'd hate to work under Title 24. I'm paying for the electricity. It should be up to me how I want to use it.

Sparky Joe

I agree, but suppose they wanted to build a power plant in your backyard so they can keep up with demand. I bet most everyone would put in a few 'wattstoppers' to avoid that

mdshunk

I'd freaking donate my back acerage for a nuclear power plant if they wanted to build one there. I was in elementary school during the Three Mile Island incident in Steelton just a few miles away.

I was working at a home not long ago, doing serveral small things for the new owners of the home. They asked me, "Do you know what they make in that big factory back there?" They were talking about a multi-million dollar natural gas fired peak shaving plant that the power company built. Few people realize that it's a power plant, that's how unobtrusive it is.

Sparky Joe

Yeah we have a gas peaking plant downtown here too. But you gotta understand those pretty things are far too expensive to run for 'day-in-day-out' power production, they are just for heat waves during mid summer to keep the whole grid from going down.

Coal is a much cheaper alternative as well as nuclear (except for everyone being scared of a Homer working in sector 7G). And even though those huge turbine jet engines are neat to look at, I would hate for that to be the view out my back window

Brendakeen

We bid for the sensors specifically - but I am always looking for a way to trim costs and up margin. We also got an immediate change order for the tile - but it was not as much as final is so we got hit with the old "time-value of money" issue. This is why I hit em high on change orders, as having to do extra work impacts cash flow to final - final is always a bigger check.

Brendakeen

Title 24 allows us to use dimmers too - but if the customer doesn't want em we have to use sensors.

The inspectors also sit there with a stopwatch and make sure that your lights go off in exactly two minutes of inactivity, come on again if you reenter within 60 seconds, and do not come on again if you reenter after 60 seconds.

mahlere

Brenda,

Let me get this straight. You bid the job too low, so now you are looking to cut corners and save money?

If the tile was changed after you put the original in, what is the problem. They pay you for the work done, they pay you for the change. What's the delay? What is the old "time-value of money thing"

As for the sensors, if you bid the job with sensors, why were you trying to switch to dimmers? If you bid the job with dimmers, why are you eating the cost of sensors?

My free advice (take it for everything it costs) is to do some serious research on running a successful contracting business. it sounds like you guys are on the wrong path.

Brendakeen

All I am trying to do is find less expensive sensors. I PLAN to install sensors.....what is wrong with trying to find better and less expensive sources for them??

All I was doing in earlier posts was explaining the CA laws, I had NO intentions of switching to dimmers. Geez!

mahlere

if you priced them for sensors, you shouldn't be throwing away profit margin. if you didn't price them high enough, that's one thing.

Brenda, good luck. But from your posts, I have come to two possible conclusions:
1) you haven't figured out how to really explain yourself and the situation
or
2) you really don't understand the situation.

If you priced the job figuring $100 cost for sensors, the profit margin should be there to put in $100 sensors. Now, if you can find someplace that sells them for less, great.

But I still don't understand the customer requested change order to already installed tile causing a delay in payment and a loss of money.

Brendakeen

The change order amount was not as large as new jobs we could have taken if we were not still stuck on this one. (Our guys are BUSY - and we can't find good ones to hire quickly enough) Business types call it "opportunity cost".

Plus if you have cash flow stuck that you expected to get weeks ago, but instead got a smaller change order - even if you net more overall, you are still impacted by not having the cash you expected by now. This is why accounting types discount future cash flows to the present using an NPV equation - it is worth less as it takes longer to get!

In high tech I could forecast cash flows with a relatively high degree of accuracy.

In construction - I am learning that anything can happen, and usually does!

Does that explain things better?

Can I also tell you that I am the type that clips coupons?

mahlere

Brenda a couple of things:

Was the original tile already installed prior to the change order?
if so, you should have received payment for the original installation at the original installation price

you already have a contract for the installation of a certain tile at a certain price, how do you lose money on a change order? Make the change order price higher. Account for the money that was originally supposed to be there. Get the check for the change order on the spot. There was definately a mistake on your part here. I just don't understand the full timeline.

See you have a contract. If the customer wants to change it, make it worth your while. Otherwise just do the installation as per the contract.

If your guys are busy, increase the price to the customer, the customer pays for everything.

Brenda, I'm still not understanding the entire situation, but from your posts it appears that your company has made some mistakes in managing the project.

Good luck.

Brendakeen

Yes, the tile was installed prior to the customer's change of heart and we only get paid the full bill on completion of the job. We had a draw schedule, but you are also right - I am still learning how to effectively set up draws so cash flow stays steady.

Next time, I will take your advice and make sure ALL the tile is paid for PLUS change order at the time. All we have now is the change order $$$. Other subs had to be paid, so that left us with a profitable job on paper, but cash poor.

I am also changing policy to make sure all change orders are paid AHEAD of time, not on completion as we have had a few customers who agreed to the change (yes I know, get signatures) have sudden memory lapses.

We are a 2 1/2 yr old company, and are still learning. I am looking for any insights I can get and anywhere I can cut costs to improve overall profitability.

However, in my prior life as a high techie, we didn't take a piece of business unless it paid us 60% margin. Competition out here in construction makes those kind of margins impossible.

I shouldn't have said "throwing away margins" with respect to the job. I was thinking of the company as a whole.