Arch Fault Breakers

edirector

Can any give me the electrical code for Arch fault breakers. Are they required on renovations of old apartments or just new construction? Renovating apartments built in 1951 Arch faults will not work. Code inspector says I have to install them. They are over loaded and will cause a complete rewiring of all units.

Thanks

Hogansville, GA

macmikeman

Well sir, If I was you, and I admit it I am not, I would get myself an electrician to handle the situation, likety split. Course you would have to pay him, but since he knows what to do, thats what you'd be paying him for.

edirector

my general contractors has had two electricians on site. They are going to doing the work. My problem is how go complete the work. I am trying to get the documentation of the electrical codes as to requirements of arch fault on renovations or only on new constructions. Then we will know how to proceed. The code inspector says show it to me in the code book. Well he has the code book but won't let me use his. I have ordered my own copy but who knows how long it will be before it arrives.

Do you see the problem I am having. My work is at a standstill.

macmikeman

Ok, since you have electricians working there, I'll quit the smartass stuff, maybe I can be of some service to you. You are pretty much at the mercy and whim of the local Authority Having Jurisdiction for your locality. This may be the local electrical inspector, or it may be his boss at the building department.(hint, hint). The code is written in such a way on this particular situation of new work vs existing renovations, that tends to confuse many. In my own opinion of the actual code reference it is simply that once you install new 120 volt, 15 and 20 amp outlets,(receptacles,lights, smoke detectors included) you must protect the branch circuit with an ark fault detector device (breaker). Doesn't state whether there is any distinction between new construction or existing getting renovated. As for merly replacing defective devices on existing circuits, I would tend to sway towards not required, but that is just my opinion.

mdshunk

Arc fault breakers are required on all bedroom circuits that operaate at 120 volts.

There is absolutely nothing in the code that will make arc fault protection retroactively required on any existing work.

You beef is not with arc fault protection. You need to ask for the exact code citation for the code that is making them retroactively applicable to your project. Inspectors must provide code citations for violations.

I understand you all only did panel changes. This may be what's triggering it. If so, then any circuit breaker that serves a circuit in a bedroom should be an arc fault breaker. It's a simple change.

Speedy Petey

No actually. Not at all.
Let the electricians handle it. Why do you need the code refrences at all. The electricians have them. At least they better, or they are NOT electricians.

The NEC does not differentiate between reno and new work.
The way the AFCI code is written is that any branch circuits for outlets serving bedrooms require AFCI protection. The code does NOT say the oultes themselves nust be protected. To accurately understand this you must know exactly what an "outlet" is.

Many local jurisdictions misinterpret this code and say any new outlets must be AFCI. If you follow the letter of the code this is not so, since you are not adding a branch circuit.
If you add a branch circuit you must have AFCI.

To be honest, asking this question over the internet is like asking how much sales tax is. This section of the code is different for EVERY area of the country. In my area they are not enforced at all.

If the inspector is requiring this of you he is compelled to tell you or show you in writing. Even if if he simply gives you the code refrence go look it up in the library.

But I am still wondering why this is your problem.....

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Speedy Petey

Sorry for the redunancy. I was typing as Marc posted.

*Marc - The wire nuts are on their way. Thanks.*

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jbfan

Since you and I are both in GA, here is the code as it stands. Te 2005 code was adapeted in Jan, with one or two small changes. Arc Fault are required for new work. The local code in the county next to you, that I work in requires any new circuits, but not the old circuits to be Arc Fault. Any exstenison of an exsiting circuit is also excluded from the Arc Fault.
Like Petey said. If it is a violation, make the inspector show it, and have the electricians expalin it to you.

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We are the people (our parents warned us about) (Jimmy Buffett)

RobertWilber

hi guys
"Authority Having Jurisdiction" - nobody cares what anybody but this party thinks.
THE NEC is a MINIMUM STANDARD "intended to be suitable for mandatory application" which means that the local AHJ can adopt WHATEVER standard they choose to enforce, even if it is just "Local Joe's expanded personal electrical standard" in which they require Rigid Metallic Conduit for doorbell wiring.

macmikeman

Permit me to quote the 2005 codebook and then highlight a single word in that to help clear any confusion here. From the 2005 NEC,
210.12 (B) All 120 volt single phase 15 and 20 amp Branch circuits supplying outlets "INSTALLED" in a dwelling unit bedroom shall be protected by a listed ark fault interrupter

An outlet and a device are two seperate animals by definition in the code, so in case there is any confusion at all, replacing a "device" would not require ark fault protection for the branch circuit. Installing an "outlet" would however. By replacing an old panel you are not "installing" an outlet, so therefore if an electrical inspector requires you to provide ark fault breakers to protect the bedroom branch circuits, then he is not reading the code exactly as it is written. However having said that, if an inspector informs an electrician replacing an existing panel that he wants ark faults installed, then most likely in most situations ark faults are going to go in there. Most electricians are smart enough to know when to give in and do what the AHJ wants, and particularly in a legal minefield area such as ark fault protection.

As far as the original poster's question goes, I am in total agreement that it ought to be his electricians who are going to sort things out.
They are the experts, leave it to the experts.

Speedy Petey

I do get your point Mac, but I still don't agree.

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mdshunk

This person's trouble stems mostly from the fact that the electrician they've hired is an idiot. She said this in her introduction yesterday:

I put the passage in bold that troubles me, and causes me to think her electrician is an idiot. Some breaker or breakers are feeding the bedroom stuff now. Unclip them and clip in an AFCI version. What's the frigging problem? I'm sure that this lady is more than willing to pay the dough to get her inspections passed. If I was in her area, I'd do it for her and be done by lunch. I fail to see the problem. Even if the bedrooms are done with multiwire circuits, which I suspect may be the root of the electrician's objection, they do have 2 pole, independant trip AFCI's now for such occasions.

jbfan

I agree with MD. There is power to the room now. Changing the breaker will not increase the load. No problem.

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macmikeman

Holy Cow MD, I never saw that part of the thread until just now. I agree. The electrician at the site must be an idiot. Was that from another thread? Or is my browser not working right again? By the way an ark fault breaker will add a teensy bit of load because of its circuitry but I believe we are talking microamps here.

What I did want to do is point out for the masses that just changing a panel out in a dwelling does not necessarily require adding ark fault breakers to the new panel, if your jurisdiction is one that adopted the 2002 or 2005 code and has no local amendments to it. Careful study of 210-12 (B) reveals that installing outlets is what kicks in the requirement for ark fault breakers for the bedroom branch circuits, providing they fall under the other voltage/ phase requirements. I try to reinforce this where I can in the hopes that uninformed electrical inspectors (if there ever be such a thing.....)might happen to read this and then will actually take the time to read that code section and then base the pass or fail on what the code is really stating, not on what they assume it is stating. I may have another lost cause here. Apologies to all for the lousy spelling and long sentences.

mdshunk

Luckily, no jurisdiction that I work in requires arc fault breakers for panel changes and service upgrades. Even if they did, it's no skin off my back. It all goes in the price. If they want gold plated panel covers, that's what they're gonna get, and the customer will pay for it. I don't have the energy to fight city hall.

jbfan

The electrician in question has posted at mike holts site.
http://www.mikeholt.com/code_forum/s...ad.php?t=79620

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Speedy Petey

Jbfan, the OP is NOT an electrician. He made this clear in his posts.
I think the guys at Mike Holt's site should know this.

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jbfan

I didn't see that before. Thanks

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We are the people (our parents warned us about) (Jimmy Buffett)