Al V.s. Cu ?? Winner?

Bubbles

Obviously, Cu is way up. Who besides myself is seriously thinking about running standed Al to certain items for the first time?? What are pro's and con's of both beyound the basics? Ex. Feeders, Furnaces, Grounds and even Ovens on the longer runs? Been a lover of Cu for long but now it's getting tough on bids.....Any nice pro's v.s. Con articles out there?? I know it's within code ...but as someone on here say's "Just cause it code don't make it safe or efficient".

Anyone else pondering?

Chris75

I've always used AL. for anything over #6awg.

Bkessler

There is nothing wrong with running aluminum. Use #8 for dryers and A.C.'s when possible. Just squeeze some anti oxidant on your terminations.

Chris75

I wouldn't worry too much about the anti oxidant. but I dont want to start a debate on that stuff.

Bkessler

I use it just because I learned that way and I love to get it all over myself.

Chris75

Hahaha, me too...

Waco

I use AL for service entrance cable and nothing -- nothing -- else. I see no sense in buying devices that are rated for both CU and AL if I don't have to and I see no sense in challenging some DIY homeowner to figure out his house is AL wired before he starts a fire.

Think about that Beverly Hills Supper Club fire in Cincinnatti many years ago.

Besides that, the code "assumes" normal wiring is CU and practically says so. See 110.5, 2008 NEC.

Bkessler

What devices are you talking about? You know they stopped selling aluminum for 15 and 20 amp circuits a few years ago? And if there was something wrong with using minimum #8 I think it would be banned. Maybe when you were a hack you were not terminating it carefully enough.

Bkessler

Waco you just made this post interesting. Thanks.

Speedy Petey

What the hell are you talking about????

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dezwitinc

I use aluminum whenever possible but I always terminate and splice it with a compression fitting.
You can get a small handtool from Burndy or Ilsco for a few bucks that will do #6, #8, and even #4.
Just keep a box of compression fittings in the truck.

Anti oxidant should always be used for aluminum terminations. Live close to the ocean and it gets used on copper feeders.

Waco

Get somebody to help you. Oh, and I have used AL to run sub-feeds to load other load centers, but (by golly) the breakers are all rated for AL.

AL rated receptacles and switches are still sold. I wouldn't know if smaller sized AL wire is still sold since I'm no market for it, but it is still listed in the NEC.

Don't worry about no-ox? Are they kidding?

Speedy Petey

I'll have to find someone who is fluent in gibberish. Your post made no sense.

Gee, me too. All the time.

Yes, for replacement purposes.

Just so you know, it is NOT legal nor sold any more. Yes, old installations are grandfathered in.

Do I personally use it. Yes.
Is it code required, NO.

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nap

first, the Beverly Hills Supper Club was not in Cincinnati. It wasn't even in Ohio. It was in Southgate Kentucky.

then, the part about 110.5 is kind of like quoting a law that says it is illegal to cause the death of another. There are many many exceptions to both statements. The exceptions have qualifiers that allow aluminum wire and causing the death of another in many situations. Simply, you must follow the rules imposed on either of those actions for them to be allowed.

read a few sections like 310.2(B), 310.14, 330.104, and many others.


about the Club:

read page 186 of the book reprinted here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NVS...sult#PPA186,M1


and here is a little reading about the legal wranglings involved in the ensuing law suits. Take note that originally, the courts did find in favor of the defendants.
http://www.altlaw.org/v1/cases/504524

While everybody wants to blame aluminum wiring for all the ills of the electrical world, I maintain the position that it is not in fact the aluminum wiring that is the problem but the failure of the devices themselves that have caused the problems. This has been proved out over years and years of use of aluminum wiring, that when used and connected to devices designed specifically with the physics of aluminum wiring in mind, have caused no problems any greater than that of copper wiring.

This is supported by the fact that although the oxide that rapidly forms on aluminum wiring is one of the blamed causes for the problems with aluminum wiring, which would easily be solved by proper preparation and application of corrosion inhibiting materials such a No-Ox and other oxidation prevention materials, still is not a requirement of the NEC. I would suggest that the NEC is often over-reactive and tends to fault on the side of safety using limited support for an action, would have made such prep and use of material a mandatory action long ago it the advisory panel would have found this to be a major contributing factor to the problems associated with aluminum wiring.

Blaming aluminum wiring, in gross, for causing fires is analogous with blaming bullets for killing people. While there is a relationship between each of them and the result of concern, there are many other contributing factors that add to the undesirable result each of them are blamed. It has been proved that there MUST be additional factors involved for either of these causation factors to actually result in the undesirable result.

Blaming aluminum wiring, and nothing else, for all the damage in any incident would be like blaming the Chinese for all the deaths of the world involving gun powder because they invented it. There are a lot of other factors involved. As I stated previously, those other factors are actually the greater cause of the ill result than the base concern blamed for everything.
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skyhook

I attribute the installer who nicked the aluminum wire when he stripped it. The nick caused a weak point in the wire and after so many cycles, the wire would eventually break.

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Waco

Made enough sense to get a reply from you. And what I said about AL rated devices stands.

The Beverly Hills Supper Club fire was in Kentucky, but most people outside this area are more apt to recognize Cincinnati.

I get a kick out of people who argue like their balls are in a vise!

And, as I wrote, I never -- NEVER -- us AL except for subfeeds. I don't actually give a rat's ass if others use it.

Now, which part of my post was "gibberish?" The part about devices or service feeds or subfeeds and sub panels?

Magnettica

I prefer to use copper too. It's just a better conductor and an overall better installation in my opinion.

Aluminum = losers!

haha... just kidding!

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fridaymean

Dude, I don't even know where they sell aluminum wiring. Only the POCO's can use it here. That isn't even a Chicago thing (Though it may be), It is a suburb thing. I think it stems from homeowners tinkering with thier own electrical work and not knowing how to work with al.

nap

because where I live, I can install a feeder for 1/2 the cost of copper by using aluminum.

your problem all started with Mrs. O'Leary's cow and Chicago has been paranoid ever since.

Speedy Petey

As Charlie Brown said to Lucy:
THAT'S IT!!!

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