AFCI Installation Cost

Tiger

I'm just getting around to reading an article in the August '07 NEC Digest regarding AFCIs. To paraphrase...according to people like the int. stds. manager for NEMA the cost to install AFCIs will be minimal...on remodels, in the neighborhood of $15-$30/cct.

The last AFCI I bought was $32.58 + tax. When we include a little travel, circuit research, replacement labor and overhead, it's not going to be cheap.

Anyone care to give a "ballpark" price on changing 20 breakers to AFCIs?

Dave

thom

Then add the cost of an auxillary panel. You can't get AFCI's as twins so you're going to need more slots.

The AFCI breaker is bulky so it leaves less working space in your panel. It takes a little longer to install with that funky coiled stranded wire.

On new housing, the real cost is likely to be about $70 per circuit, all things considered.

Bkessler

If they all fit with no trouble and it was simply just installing the breaker landing the nuetrals onto the breaker 1200 ish. But also a lot of electrician run 12 and 14-3 homers!

curranelectric

That is true , Single-pole AFCIs cannot protect circuits in which the neutral conductor is shared. The reason for this is that current flowing out and returning is monitored for the presence of a arc fault. When AFCIs breaker is installed, the circuit must have a distinct hot and a distinct neutral conductor. Otherwise, the AFCI breaker cannot distinguish arcing ground-fault when it happens. So that would be the thing to check for.

Speedy Petey

Just out of curiosity, why are you changing regular breaker to AFCIs? Especially 20 of them.

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curranelectric

I was thinking the same thing

Tiger

2008 National Electrical Code

Speedy Petey

So.....?

The code is not retroactive. You say you are changing them. Is this a new job? Besides, it's NOT 2008 yet. Even if it was, a job that is started before a code cycle changes is finished under the cycle in which it started.

IE: If you are under the 2005 NEC now, and will go to the 2008 NEC come 1/1/08, and if you start the job in Dec. '07 and finish in Feb. '08, you still follow the 2005 NEC.

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goose134

In a related note I was pleased to hear that Chicago will NOT be requiring AFCI in anything other than bedrooms. All that pipe has its advantages. Speedy, how about NY? Are you guys getting a pass on EMT installations in resi?

Tiger

The NEC Digest article was about the additional (minimal?) cost to comply with the 2008. It won't be a minimal cost to me, certainly more than $15-30 mentioned in the article. Although it may be open to debate, my typical practice is to update to the most recent code. If I replace an outlet that is now required to be GFCI protected, I install a GFCI outlet. Therefore, if I upgrade a service, it'll need a bundle of AFCI breakers.

Dave

Speedy Petey

Right. But it's NOT 2008 yet. Or are you looking for info for when it does happen?

Will your jurisdiction adopt 2008 on 1/1/08?
Also, will you have the AFCI rule imposed for service changes? This is a highly contentious subject.

The general consensus is that AFCIs should NOT be required simply due to a service change.
AFCIs are required for branch circuits. You are not installing branch circuits when you do a service change.

Goose has some interesting info for you as well. Seems you will only need four or five AFCIs per panel as opposed to 20.

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Speedy Petey

I didn't know there was any talk of all pipe for resi work in NY.
I HIGHLY doubt that would EVER come to pass. I know the unions are strong in the metro areas but that would NOT fly with the rest of the state.
I know I'd fight it tooth and nail.

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Speedy Petey

Another thing,
While this is a noble gesture, it could price you out of many jobs, couldn't it?

I mean none of us really wires to bare code minimums, but use the AFCI issue as just one example. If you price a service change with AFCIs, and the other guy does not you will be higher. Unless of course you can upsell to the customer and they are aware of why the price is higher.

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goose134

My apologies. For some reason I thought you were in NYC. Tiger, your location says northern IL. What county are you in?

curranelectric

So what you are saying is when you are doing a service upgrade is that if the area that are required for AFCI is wired with 12-3 or 14-3 you will rerun them with dedicated lines?....I could see if you are doing a new addition, new home or if it is already wired were you could do it. I would find out what your local code are on that.

Bkessler

I average a panel change every 10 working days or so, I have never insatlled an afci breaker, Only on additions and remodels were new homeruns are pulled

macmikeman

Not correct. The NEC requires you to upgrade to a gfi protected receptacle outlet if you are replacing an outlet in a location that would now normally require gfi protection. That requirement does not apply to ark fault protection, and changing out breakers in a panel replacement to afci's is a good way to boost income, but is simply not required by code, even if the local inspector thinks it is.

macmikeman

Petey, not to be a contentious stick in the mud, but this forum is read by non electricians enough that I feel it is necessary to elaborate a bit on your post. Although the afci requirement is that the entire branch circuit be protected, the actual requirement for installing afci protection is when 15, or 20 amp 120 volt "outlets"*** get installed in the bedrooms of dwellings.(2005 edition). You don't necessarily have to be installing a new branch circuit to a bedroom to fall under afci requirement, an extension to an existing one, where you are installing new 120 volt "outlets"*** will kick the requirement into gear. That being said, replacing a service is not adding 120 volt outlets to a bedroom, and therefore not required to replace breakers to ark fault when replacing said service.

***see NEC definition of outlet for the non electrician crowd.

Speedy Petey

Mac, your clarification is welcomed.
Sometimes I can be a bit too too the point and not give enough detail. Other times I go too far with detail.

Thanks for covering for me.

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Tiger

I didn't really want to start a debate about if I'm required to change to AFCI breakers or not. I'm in McHenry County and also work in Lake, Kane and Cook Counties. Illinois is probably different than most parts of the country. Each building department adopts any version of the NEC it wants with any amendments it wants. They never notify me of changes and the only way to get current information/requirements is to call. In some departments I can get different answers from different inspectors. Most inspectors are only in the office a short time in the am & pm for calls.

The easiest way to avoid this constantly moving target is to install according to the most recent NEC. Some departments will adopt the 2008. I'll be installing AFCIs. Right or wrong, in most cases it's easier to do whatever the inspectors ask. I value my time and fight very few code battles with inspectors.

Dave