AFCI breaker question. - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Jeff (socal) · 12-22-2008, 06:59 AM

I have a situation where the homeowner called me to fix the correction notice for their final inspection on their room addition. Whoever roped the bedroom addition put the lights and the receptacles in 2 separate circuits instead of putting it in 1 circuit. Does this mean i have to use 2 AFCI breakers to satisfy the code requirement?. OR should i just put the AFCI on the receptacle circuit and call it a day. And why in the world do they make the white leads coming from the AFCI breaker so short. This means i would have to splice it with another #12 conductor. Thanks!

Burby · 12-22-2008, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff (socal)

I have a situation where the homeowner called me to fix the correction notice for their final inspection on their room addition. Whoever roped the bedroom addition put the lights and the receptacles in 2 separate circuits instead of putting it in 1 circuit. Does this mean i have to use 2 AFCI breakers to satisfy the code requirement?. OR should i just put the AFCI on the receptacle circuit and call it a day. And why in the world do they make the white leads coming from the AFCI breaker so short. This means i would have to splice it with another #12 conductor. Thanks!

What did the correction notice for their final inspection state was improper or not included?

Static Design · 12-22-2008, 09:13 AM

Just put the AFCI on the receptacles, and yes the short chords are a pain in the ass.

Hidyusbeast · 12-22-2008, 10:06 AM

I would put either two afci breakers or put the lights with the plugs at least temporarily on 1 afci breaker. Of course the first option would be my choice. Especially after a failed inspection everything should be to the T!

Hopefully those two were wired with separate neutrals.

Jeff (socal) · 12-22-2008, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burby

What did the correction notice for their final inspection state was improper or not included?

To provide AFCI breaker instead of the reg 20 amp breaker.

Jeff (socal) · 12-22-2008, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hidyusbeast

I would put either two afci breakers or put the lights with the plugs at least temporarily on 1 afci breaker. Of course the first option would be my choice. Especially after a failed inspection everything should be to the T!

Hopefully those two were wired with separate neutrals.

2 conductors in one terminal is a code violation unless i use the one that lets you do so. Your first suggestion was my first choice too but it would just cost the owner extra money. Where in SOCAL are you at?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Spool

Just put the AFCI on the receptacles, and yes the short chords are a pain in the ass.

hehehe you got that right!..

Celtic · 12-22-2008, 04:59 PM

If you are under the '05 NEC, recepts. only
If you are under the '08 NEC, all outlets
[210.12(B)]
See 100 for the definition of an "outlet".

Personally, I would use 2 - a nice little upsell.

Hidyusbeast · 12-22-2008, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff (socal)

2 conductors in one terminal is a code violation unless i use the one that lets you do so. Your first suggestion was my first choice too but it would just cost the owner extra money. Where in SOCAL are you at?

hehehe you got that right!..

Orange County , and afci's are designed to protect from short circuits(the leading cause of electrically related fires) so the $50+ any markup is Cheap insurance IMO. BTW if I did put it on 1 breaker I would just junction it outside of the panel. I would strongly push the 2 afci's if I was you.

Magnettica · 12-22-2008, 10:58 PM

The definition of outlet: A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

Why is this important? Because technically a ceiling light box is an outlet as much as the receptacle box is.

acrwc10 · 12-23-2008, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celtic

If you are under the '05 NEC, recepts. only
If you are under the '08 NEC, all outlets
[210.12(B)]
See 100 for the definition of an "outlet".

Personally, I would use 2 - a nice little upsell.

I think you meant 2002 receptacles only, in 05' ( which CA is under ) says all outlets must be AFCI protected.
I would go with the 2 breakers and if you go with one you can wire nut both together in the panel it is not a violation to do so.

mckens · 12-23-2008, 01:10 PM

Funny how the code is different up here in canada, up here only receptacles in bedrooms need to be on an AFCI not lights according to code. And i dunno how you get away with splicing in a panel but up here that is a direct code violation.

Celtic · 12-23-2008, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acrwc10

I think you meant 2002 receptacles only, in 05' ( which CA is under ) says all outlets must be AFCI protected.

I dunno...they like to continuously change that one, so let's open our bibles and see:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2002 NEC

210.12(B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms.
All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2005 NEC

(B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms.
All 120-volt, single phase,15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by a
listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination type installed
to provide protection of the branch circuit.
Branch/feeder AFCIs shall be permitted to be used to
meet the requirements of 210.12(B) until January 1, 2008.

Good catch....TY for bringing that to my attention....but I think we are both wrong [barring any amendments]...outlets includes:
Recept.s, lighting, and smokes.

Of Mention: NJ does not require AFCI protection.

Celtic · 12-23-2008, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hidyusbeast

Orange County , and afci's are designed to protect from short circuits(the leading cause of electrically related fires) so the $50+ any markup is Cheap insurance IMO. BTW if I did put it on 1 breaker I would just junction it outside of the panel. I would strongly push the 2 afci's if I was you.

I thought AFCI's protected from arc faults...and a regular CB would handle a short circuit.

Hidyusbeast · 12-23-2008, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celtic

I thought AFCI's protected from arc faults...and a regular CB would handle a short circuit.

The difference is afci's are much more sensitive and will trip even if the neutral is barely touching the ground or if a cord on an appliance that is plugged in is defective. Whereas a normal breaker relies on the thermal rating, but will also trip with direct neutral to hot / ground to hot/ or phase to phase. Afci much more sensitive and require almost perfect makeup if you ever had to troubleshoot a tripped afci circuit. An electrical engineer can describe it in more detail but this is in a nutshell!

Jeff (socal) · 12-24-2008, 01:56 AM

splicing both branch circuits and pigtailing it to go to one CB is definitely a code violation. That is the same as putting 2 conductors in one CB terminal that is only meant for take 1 conductor.

Also AFCIs are so sensitive that one time i was working at this newly built home and when i plugged in my SAWZALL to one of the bedroom receptacle it tripped after -3 sec of holding the trigger. Arcing inside the sawzall was causing the AFCI to trip.

macmikeman · 12-24-2008, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff (socal)

splicing both branch circuits and pigtailing it to go to one CB is definitely a code violation. That is the same as putting 2 conductors in one CB terminal that is only meant for take 1 conductor.

Uh, Jeff, unless you have local ammendments to the code to state this, I think you are going to have some hunting ahead to show us a violation.

Celtic · 12-24-2008, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff (socal)

splicing both branch circuits and pigtailing it to go to one CB is definitely a code violation. That is the same as putting 2 conductors in one CB terminal that is only meant for take 1 conductor.

Must be one of those myths like:
- no splicing in a panel
- 100' between pull points w/pipe
- Abominable Snowman

Jeff....you need to give us a code.

acrwc10 · 12-24-2008, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celtic

I dunno...they like to continuously change that one, so let's open our bibles and see:

Good catch....TY for bringing that to my attention....but I think we are both wrong [barring any amendments]...outlets includes:
Recept.s, lighting, and smokes.

Of Mention: NJ does not require AFCI protection.

Take a look at 2002 and you will see it is receptacles only.I think I heared that somewhere before.

it must have been in my original statement.

JohnJ0906 · 12-25-2008, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acrwc10

Take a look at 2002 and you will see it is receptacles only.I think I heared that somewhere before.

it must have been in my original statement.

The 2002 NEC requires all OUTLETS.

1999 (the start of the AFCI adventure) was the only cycle to only require receptacles to be protected.

Celtic · 12-25-2008, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acrwc10

Take a look at 2002 and you will see it is receptacles only.I think I heared that somewhere before.

it must have been in my original statement.

See the verbage from the '02 posted right in my post #12

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2002 NEC

210.12(B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms.
All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.

I do not see the word "receptacle"...I do see the word "outlet"

John is correct on the '99 verbage:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1999 NEC

(b) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms.
All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter(s). This requirement shall become effective January 1, 2002.