650' From Transformer

ATS

I'm looking into quoting a new build. The builder is requesting a 200 amp service underground. The pocos pole is 650' away. Anyone here ever done a job similar and what was the most cost effective way? I haven't contacted the pocos planner to find out what they would charge for the work but I would guess it's astronomical. There are no unusual loads in the house plans and I haven't figured the vd yet. Still in the preliminary stages of the quote. Who knows, maybe after he finds out what the wire will cost he'll move the house closer to the road.

Speedy Petey

Location is the big factor once again.

You need to find out what the POCO provides are far as primary. You will be using primary for more than half of this run so you need to find a suitable location for the transformer.

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Sparky Joe

I think he's saying the pole mounted transformer is 650' from the service of this house.
Don't quote me on this but I don't think theyll charge anything to connect a new customer.
All you need is your PVC in the ground, here the power co requires a 3 inch now, and they may require rigid 90's because of the length, they'll also require a pull string in your pipe. From there they should do the rest, but of course check with them first.

Speedy Petey

Think about it. If the xfmr is 650' away, what size secondary would he need???


In most cases the POCO will provide +/- 200' into a property. After that it is H-O responsibility.
In my area ANY/ALL underground is customer responsibility.

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aiea

Wow thats a long run!!
you probably would want to find out how far or were is the customer
property line and the city. and who's responsible for digging or trenching before you even give a quote. also you might be required to
install 2x4 pull boxes for the long run. and like the others said 3" pvc's.

good luck!!


by the way,
did anyone wire a metal frame residential house??
what is the best and fastest way to fasten romex to metal studs??

Sparky Joe

So Pete are you saying the customer has to pull the wire up to the xfmr?
I would just pull 3/0 because it is protected by 200 amps and you'll never get the voltage drop from a house (60 amp max). PoCo will probably pull 1/0 aluminum.

About the steel studs, just use MC, no complications there, works like romex in wood.

Speedy Petey

Absolutely. I do all the time. We have to buy the pad and run all underground conduits and cables. Primary and secondary. At the pole w stub up a 10' stick and leave anough to reach the top of the pole.
My POCO does not want secondary over 250'. Up to ~350' we go primary or 250mcmAL. Over that only primary.
I have done residential services well over 1000' long and never had to install pull boxes or stub ups.

HUH????
Not around here you wouldn't.
You would figure VD accoring to the demand load. Where are you getting 60 amps from???


NO, the POCO would NOT pull 1/0, we're not talking "free air" y'know.



The question was what to do with NM and steel.
Just use NM straps and 4"sq boxes with mud rings. Be sure to use stud bushings in EVERY hole. DO NOT miss even one bushing or you'll be very sorry later.
Also, get you a stud punch. Way quicker and easier than hole sawing for the spots you need your own holes.

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jbfan

I'm glad I live where I do. Here the poco runs everything to the mast, or to the meter underground. The customer will pay for the difference and whatever allowance the poco gives.

Last one I did, poco run overhead to temp pole. When finished, they took it underground from there to the meter. No charge to customer, because house was total electric.

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We are the people (our parents warned us about) (Jimmy Buffett)

ATS

Thanks for the replys. After kickin this one around I've decided to pass on quoting this. I lack the equipment and manpower to tackle this job being a one man operation. Anyone here interested in bidding this? It's in Western New York, Erie County. If so, pm me and I'll give you the contact info.

Speedy Petey

Well ATS, you are across the BIG yard from me. With today's fuel prices I don't think it's worth the 300 mile trip.

Sorry you can't make it work.

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Sparky Joe

Wow, I get the feeling someone doesn't like me around here???

So what is the demand load on a satndard house about 3000 sq' with electric range and dryer, and gas furnace and water heater? I've never seen a house with 200 amp service draw more than 60 amps.

And never seen a power company pull anything other than aluminum, and really doubt theyre gonna pull 250 mcm to a stinkin house just because it has a woppin 200 amp service.

Oh and good advice on the "way quicker" part about using Romex versus MC. Just finished a 7200 sq' tenant finish rough, took about 2 days w/ 2 guys and drilled about 3 holes in the steel studs.

Okay, your turn, tear me a new one.

Speedy Petey

It's not a matter of "like" Joe. It's a matter of you giving advice I think is out of your realm.

No, not a "whopping" 200 amp service. A whopping 650' service, regardless of amperage.
I don't care what you've seen or what the average house draws. Of course, the average house, on an average day, will not draw much more than 60-70 amps. But it can and does draw more, for more than 3 hours. What you "think" or assume a load will be holds no water. What the demand load is does.

If your poco does not compensate for long secondary services I'd hate to see what other corners they cut.
It is completely ludicrous to suggest a 650' long 200 amp secondary service with 4/0al. Period.



Yes, way quicker. A stud punch is a very handy tool when working with metal studs. You need to make quite a few holes above switch boxes in my experience. Along with many other places. The punch is much quicker, cleaner and safer than a hole saw.


7200'/sq, 2 guys, 2 days, metal studs???????
No comment, other than I'd hate to see the workmanship on that job,...unless the 2 days were 14 hours each.

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Speedy Petey

BTW - The demand load on your typical house above is over 100 amps.

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Sparky Joe

I knew it, it makes me laugh to hear the response; nothing informative, just all argumentative.
Oh and BTW workmanship is top notch, as any union electricians work would be, thats the reason why I am one of the 2 guys, perhaps the "Speedy Petey" is not due to work habits, but rather a pet name from your wife. Hahaha

Sparky Joe

BTW the stud punches I've used require at least 18 inches of space above the stud you are trying to punch, never seen a steel framed house, and hope I don't, but in the houses I have seen the walls go all the way to the ceiling.
And though it is a bit of a disgrace to us, you should see how fast and efficient union hands can rope a house. 2 summers ago, 4 guys 1 floor(4 1200 sq' foot units) / day.

Speedy Petey

Now we are getting into dislike. I highly suggest you drop the personal jabs and stick to the topic at hand little man.
And please put down the union flag. You have been waving that rag around since the first post you made here. Listen, I have seen as many, or more, hacks from the union as not. IMO your precious union does not have the stellar reputation as you would like to believe. Laziness, non-production, poor work habits, organized crime (YES, I absolutely did say that), are all very real in the "union". So please leave the megaphone at the hall.



"nothing informative, just all argumentative."

What more can I inform you of.I've stated several times what my area requires, as do most other areas in the country. I've also given you facts and numbers. You have given us assumptions.


Are you even a contractor, or a worker?
Do you even do residential, other than your quickie 7200' house?
Where do you live?
What was the last underground service you did?
How long was it?
Do you even know your POCO's requirements for services, other than what you ASSUME?

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hanapaa

Howzit everyone!

hanapaa

I was reading some recommendation
On metal wiring. Can anyone tell me
How or what do you recommend the best
Way to make holes at the corners of the
Wall's to run your wires through especially
When the studs are triple or double stacked together at both walls. Please don't tell me to go up and over unless it's
The only way.

Sparky Joe

I'm only an apprentice.

Did resi. remodels in CA for 2 years, non-union 3 man shop in the valley, sink or swim sort of deal. No schooling, no benefits, low pay, poor working conditions.

Now live in SLC with lu354, we rarely do residential unless a company owner is building a new multi million dollar house, or 'Extreme Makeover' is in town requesting union work only. And the 7200' was a 'tenant finish' which means commercial office space(or whatever the tenant wants) within an existing shell of a building.

Last underground was in the building I just did the tenant finish for. 2000A 480V to the building owner 180,000sq'(which we were the only ones to finish "on time and under budget"), 800A 480V to the tenant space, and 200A 480V for the fire pump. Which the fire pump still bothers my teacher(who is the biggest code nazi in the state, maybe even further) about the code discrepancy for the can rating(perhaps you've seen his posts in the 'code question of the day' discussion forum, Beckstrand is his name). We put in a 200A meter base, inspector(who is also an old union hand and union teacher, and compliments our workmanship consistently) had us, me and the foreman, put in an 800A rated ct can, due to locked rotor current of the 100hp fire pump.

The 3 services were about 40 feet from the utility xfrmr on the customers lot. I didn't look to see what the union boys with the utility company were pulling in for the services, but on the previous job, last fall for Roadway trucking(talk about organized crime, 'teamsters'), we installed a generator on an existing 400A service, which was run in parallel 500mcm due to the electrical room being over 500 feet away from the service(don't know why they went so big actually). The utility company contractors came in to pull their wire to our newly built service. For the 400A hook up which was easily 600 feet away from their transformer they pulled parallel 250mcm aluminum.

And my Dad is a professional engineer in charge of the metering department for the local utility, Pacific Corp., so naturally he always gives me the most recent 'electric utility service requirement' handbook. And of course when the linemen show up all you have to say is "union", and then you're all talking to each other like long lost "brothers" which is something I never saw happen on the non-union side due to the "rats"(non-union contractors) making our hard work into a struggle because they'll very willingly hire some moron just because they'll do the job for 5 bucks an hour less.

I have no idea what you have against unions anyway, other than the things you mentioned above which don't directly affect you and your work?
'So what', if I mention this so called "ungodly" word "union" in any post that I'm free to reply to?

Sparky Joe

Oh and 'hanapaa' post a new thread.
I have now idea what you're talking about "metal wiring"?