50amp Circit

OsNap

Iam hopeing to get a Lincoln "Buzz Box" and it runs on 230v 50amp. I was going to run the wires myself but I am not going to touch the panel. Anyways I am going to run the wire in my backyard to my garage(Detached) in some 1/2'' or 3/4'' conduit. What I need to know is what type of cabel to get, and what kind of breakers. Is it one single 50 amp or 2 25amps? Thanks

mdshunk

Are you running a complete (point to point) conduit system, or just sleeving the underground portion?

I must admit ahead of time that I feel a 16 year old has no business doing any part of this sort of project without supervision. I'm not even sure yet if I want to give a minor trade advice. You lack the (legal) ability to make life safety decisions on your own.

OsNap

Iam not going to do anything that i could kill my self, I was just asking so I kind of have a clue when I watching the electrition. I wanted to get the wire and breakers so that he didnt have to get them. The only thing I will be doing is runnign the wire from the panel(I am not touching that panel) and then thougth my basment thought holes that are all ready there. Then drilling a hole In the block in my basment so that I can get thought the conduit thoguth it, then sealing up the hole with that sillicon caulk. Then run the PVC( I do know how to glue PVC) then running it to my garage, mounting the box with the recipital in there, wire it.

It will be point to point for the PVC then running to a surface mounted box. I will wire the box and have the guy check it so that is right. And then he will wire it up. But if you dont think I should I will wait for the electrican to do it. Thx

DaveTap

Well I have been doing supervised electrical work since I was around 12. Remodeled and wired 1/2 my parent's basement at 14 and still have jr high kids at church work with me that can out wire and troubleshoot many electrician's I know so age is not a problem if careful and knowledgeable. In this case he even said he will not be connecting to the panel... although I see no problem with that if properly supervised.

To answer the question it would be a 2-pole 50amp, but there is more... because it is running from one building to the other you will need a service disconnect at the garage and a grounding electrode (rod driven at least 6' deep)

If you've gotton this far and your house service is 200 amps I would recommend installing a panel in the garage for later expansion. (A 100amp Main Breaker Panel located within 5' of where the wires enter only costs $50 and qualifies as your service disconnect but the larger wire and 100 amp breaker in the house will cost you more)

You'll need distance to calculate voltage drop and wire size, and then decide if you want to use wires in conduit or underground cable.

Normally I use conduit so that I can install lights on the garage running the three-way switch wires in the same conduit so they can be turned on and off at the house also.

Hint: while the trench is open you might also want to run things like gas for heat, cable, ethernet, or water.

For grounding see here: http://www.mikeholt.com/PopGraphic.php?id=4396
http://www.mikeholt.com/PopGraphic.php?id=4396

OsNap

Ya, if the guy was there watching me I would do it. I dont really know any one to watch me eather. But I was thnking about putting a small panel out there, we cant have na heat, water, seage lkines out there tho, the city said we cant. But that was for living there. I might put a water line out there. Cause everything is like 45+ years, so I might put a small panel out there.

And so what you are saying is put a box out there so this way I can run it right from the box? and then hook other circits up to it.

Speedy Petey

While it is true about the feeder disconnect, a grounding electrode is NOT required if just this one circuit is run. Regardless that it is a detached structure.

If a feeder is run then yes, a grounding electrode system is required. In this case, a rod would need to be 8' long, not 6', and must be fully driven/burried.

IMO a single circuit is crazy. A feeder is the only sane option.


I must say, I do agree with Marc about the issue of giving electrical advice to a minor. Even if he doesn't intent to kill himself.
There should definitely be someone supervising.
You DO NOT know enough at 16. I don't care what you think you know.

__________________

Sparky Joe

Just dig the trench for the electrician then have him come do the rest.

Your illiteracy makes it very tough for anyone to give you advice about a specialized trade.

Please, Please don't try and do anything but work a shovel before you make more work for this poor electrician or worse yet burn down mom and dad's house.

mdshunk

Best advice yet!!!

Most electricians don't know how to work a shovel. I know I can barely figure one out.

Sparky Joe

The best shovels work themselves, all you gotta do is stand there and hold them up

747

I like the kid he is a go getter. But i do see the point about giving a minor advice like he is asking for.

N.E.Bldg&Rest.LLC

HOLY CRAP spell check, use the spell check

__________________
"Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all."

Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)

72chevy4x4

the kids trying to learn-I learned by myself w/o the benefit of a the internet or books on an old farm house growing up-got a heck of a shock too!

To run the feeder from the main panel in the house, you'll need to run it through conduit like schedule 80. you may end up using 1" conduit-don't try to save money on the smallest stuff since its harder to pull three thick copper wires plus a smaller ground. I ran 100A service to my garage so that it would handle a 225A welder and the smaller stuff like compressors and a heater. It required individual wires-sorry but I forget the size, but it was expensive. The idea of running an extra cable for 3-way lighting is awesome! When pulling cable through the conduit, there are tools to make the job easier.

a long time ago my wife got me a set of time life books-you could probably find these at a second hand book store. They are great for getting common knowledge stuff w/ electricity, plumbing, framing, and a lot of other areas.

I've always liked the kids that ask questions b/c they want to learn...the only problem is they're more likely to be the ones who go out on their own!

Sparky Joe

I agree fully with 'chevy', you need to do your reading kid, and even then you won't know even the jist of what we would like to tell you, you'd have to see how things are done and experience first-hand why they are done that way.

"point to point" does not mean start to finish of the PVC run, but rather start to finish of the circuit.

You may want to consider adding a 100amp panel in your garage, which would require more planning, but less work later on. I'm sure you're gonna want receptacles out there to plug in a radio, and eventually a mini fridge since it will inevitably become your hang out away from 'mom and dad'

DaveTap

Josh... still need to know distance to the garage.
Also why can't you have heat? You need to drywall garage first?
It is harder to run gas pipe... especially since kind of pipe and fittings required keep changing. In the old days it was black iron or copper tubing...

Pete can you show me a reference? I almost had an argument with an inspector about this but couldn't find it. (and it was lighting/outlet circuit in RMC only 10' from house)
Right... my bad
Thanks for backing me up!!!

Right from the start he said he would not be going in the panel. I learned enough to do most electrical work in my 12th grade Jr High shop class. I was 14 when I remodeled 1/2 my parents basement alone... and that passed inspection no problem. At church I work with Jr High kids who work with A/V and lighting equipment worth millions of dollars... they also know a lot about electrical and I would trust them to wire a house... they already have helped us install industrial stage lighting gutters and 3 phase panels. Its the older guys I worry about... electricity wasn't even discovered yet but they're allowed to pull permits for their own property and with absolutely no training can go wire a house. I figure anyone can dig a trench and drop pvc conduit in it. If they're careful they can even pull the wires and connect a panel leaving the excess wire hanging. I do a lot of "consulting" jobs this way, show up beforehand to design and print out instructions... demonstrate wiring basics... then come back to inpsect and connect.

Speedy Petey

250.32 Buildings or Structures Supplied by Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s)
(A) Grounding Electrode Building(s) or structure(s) supplied by feeder(s) or branch circuit(s) shall have a grounding electrode or grounding electrode system installed in accordance with 250.50. The grounding electrode conductor(s) shall be connected in accordance with 250.32(B) or (C). Where there is no existing grounding electrode, the grounding electrode(s) required in 250.50 shall be installed.

Exception: A grounding electrode shall not be required where only a single branch circuit supplies the building or structure and the branch circuit includes an equipment grounding conductor for grounding the conductive non–current-carrying parts of equipment. For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered as a single branch circuit.

__________________

Sparky Joe

What about the disconnect Pete, where is that found. I thought if you had 6 breakers or less you don't need a main?

Speedy Petey

ART. 225
II. More Than One Building or Other Structure

225.30 Number of Supplies
Where more than one building or other structure is on the same property and under single management, each additional building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of the service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.

225.31 Disconnecting Means
Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure.

225.32 Location
The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For the purposes of this section, the requirements in 230.6 shall be utilized.

__________________

OsNap

OK first I will tell you my book list, I have Home depot books on electrical, plumbing, general remodel work, outdoor projects, welding books, carpentry books. I have at least 15+ plus books on different topics like this. I have read everyone at least twice from cover to cover.
And I know you use a fish tape to pull wires thought the pipe and other places.

O and I did have PSEG come out and mark were the water lines are, and the old electrical lines are at.

Next is we tried to put a room in the top part of the garage, and the township said that there cant be a residency up there. I am not going to run heat out there, I might run water but probably not, I can just walk in my house and get it. I more focused on the electrical work.

Speedy, I know that I do not know enough about this to do it by myself. Why do think I bought books and read them cover to cover, and asking here about it? Its not like I am just going out there, rip up my yard bust holes in the walls, mess it all up. I am taking my time, drawing up plans(Not like the good ones, basic plans). And I am getting a electrician to do the hook up, and he will look over everything.

I do know that "point to point" means from the box to the receptacle. Iam not going to put a fridge out there, there is outlets, I have a radio out there.

You can have heat, but I am not going to put it out there. The walls are block, and up stairs there framed.

I forgot to measure the distance, but I think it was 30' or so.

If I did put a box out there, it would have 1 circuit for 230 50 amp, two for 120 15amp, and then one for 120v 20 amp. And then one for a dedicated things, like lights on the ceilings etc.

mdshunk

Os, since it seems like you're gonna stick around...
Two of my favorite ho-to type texts that I can recommend are H.P.Richter's "Practical Electrical Wiring" and Rex Cauldwell's "Wiring a House, Revised". Richter's book is a very old text, from the 1930's, that has been in almost constant print. Cauldwell's book sucks in a lot of ways, but it's about the best one out so far dedicated purposely to wiring a home from start to finish. For wiring a detached garage, the best text isn't printed, it's online. Check it out at http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/homew...rage/index.htm

Sparky Joe

I like this whole post, I say go for it dude, now what was the original question?

Oh yeah; The breaker is actually 2 50 amps, but they are as one single unit and connect to 2 legs of power in your panel, If you've looked in your panel before you'd've seen big breakers, small breakers and perhaps really small breakers (meaning width wise), you need a big one with a "50" on the handle, but keep in mind to get the right brand.

As for the cable, that's tough, I never pull cable assemblies (such as Romex) through conduit, though some people do. And because half of your run is allowed as a cable and the other half required to be conduit I would opt for a junction box where the run changes from inside to outside. The wire in the conduit would be 3 #8's (tape the ends; one red, another white, and the other leave black) and a # 10 for a ground. For the cable assembly (the peice of wire installed in the basement) get something from Home Depot called 8/3 (pronounced as; -eight- -three-). I would suggest leaving all the ends of the wire loose and having a qualified electrician do ALL the terminations, seeing as this is where problems and fires are most likely to occur. But you should watch him work and ask him plenty of questions.

Do not use 1/2" conduit (not big enough for your installation), Use 3/4 is good for what you're doing, although most electricians would put in a 1 inch because after it's buried it'll be tough to add things later on, unless you oversized the conduit.

Just make sure you take your time and think out everything very carefully, you might see electricians staring at walls a lot of times, no they're not stoned, there is just a lot to think about even with the smallest things on any installation.

I think I've covered most things I can think of. Be sure and ask if you run into a problem, I gotta say this is fastest responding forum I've ever seen.