12/2 Uf-b W Ground What Is It?

 
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Old 12-25-2006, 06:33 AM   #1
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12/2 Uf-b W Ground What Is It?


I was at the local hardware store and they have 12/2 uf-b w ground for half the price as 12/2 w ground romex. I am putting a wood working shop in my barn and using a lot of wire. Can uf-b be used in place of romex? What is the difference?

Jim Bunton
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Old 12-25-2006, 07:53 AM   #2
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Re: 12/2 Uf-b W Ground What Is It?


UF is "underground feeder". It can be run in a trench, as in "direct burial" - no conduit even required. I ran a 12-2 UF to my woodshop for a 20 amp circuit for the tools, then switched to 12-2 NMB (normal "Romex" jacket) for the interior just because it was cheaper.

I'm not an electrician but I do believe UFB can be used in the same ways as NMB on the interior, it's just not usually done because it's usually more expensive.

I'll be interested in electricians' comments on the difference from NMB for interior use. I know from my limited experience that it's harder to work with, because the jacket plastic it moulded around the conductors so it's hard to strip off without nicking the conductors' insulation.

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Old 12-25-2006, 08:04 AM   #3
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Re: 12/2 Uf-b W Ground What Is It?


I would guess that underground has been on the shelf for a couple of years and was priced before wire prices went up up.
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Old 12-25-2006, 08:40 AM   #4
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Re: 12/2 Uf-b W Ground What Is It?


I don't really understand why the UF was cheaper. It's generally a fair amount more (in price) than ordinary NM-B (indoor) romex. If this is a small local hardware store, I would also guess it's been on the shelf a while.

It is certainly legal to use UF indoors, but it would be complete misery. It's no picnic to skin out. Myself, I don't even use UF underground, as it will always fail. I use conductors pulled in conduit. I use UF only for exterior exposed areas where the customer won't spring for conduit, or for damp indoor areas such as agricultural buildings.

Use it if you want to for normal indoor work, but I sure wouldn't.
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Old 12-26-2006, 12:33 AM   #5
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Re: 12/2 Uf-b W Ground What Is It?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mdshunk View Post
I don't really understand why the UF was cheaper. It's generally a fair amount more (in price) than ordinary NM-B (indoor) romex. If this is a small local hardware store, I would also guess it's been on the shelf a while.

It is certainly legal to use UF indoors, but it would be complete misery. It's no picnic to skin out. Myself, I don't even use UF underground, as it will always fail. I use conductors pulled in conduit. I use UF only for exterior exposed areas where the customer won't spring for conduit, or for damp indoor areas such as agricultural buildings.

Use it if you want to for normal indoor work, but I sure wouldn't.
Thank you for the advise! I realise I have used it in the past I just couldn't remember for sure that I was right about it being uf. It was miserable. I do have some long runs that will eat a lot of wire I may pick up a roll just to save money and use it just on the long runs.

Jim Bunton
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Old 12-29-2006, 01:13 PM   #6
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Re: 12/2 Uf-b W Ground What Is It?


Quote:
Originally Posted by paintr56 View Post
Thank you for the advise! I realise I have used it in the past I just couldn't remember for sure that I was right about it being uf. It was miserable. I do have some long runs that will eat a lot of wire I may pick up a roll just to save money and use it just on the long runs.

Jim Bunton
New for the 2005 Code, Type UF cable is now required to be listed.

II. Installation

340.10 Uses Permitted

Type UF cable shall be permitted as follows:

(4) Installed as nonmetallic-sheathed cable. Where so installed, the installation and conductor requirements shall comply with Parts II and III of Article 334 and shall be of the multiconductor type.
Where UF cable is installed as nonmetallic-sheathed cable, the ampacity of Type UF cable is determined according to 334.80. For Type UF cable used for interior wiring, see the installation requirements and the associated commentary in Parts I and II of Article 334.
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Old 12-30-2006, 04:35 AM   #7
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Re: 12/2 Uf-b W Ground What Is It?


You probably got it cheaper because it may be unlisted and is now required to listed per a change in Article 340.
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Old 12-30-2006, 08:42 AM   #8
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Re: 12/2 Uf-b W Ground What Is It?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeTedesco View Post
You probably got it cheaper because it may be unlisted and is now required to listed per a change in Article 340.
I seriously doubt a local hardware store would even have a clue what that means, or that they would likely care. Especially considering they had it in stock.

"12/2UF? Yeah, we got that."
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Old 12-30-2006, 06:37 PM   #9
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Re: 12/2 Uf-b W Ground What Is It?


What if the salesperson told them that their UF-B cable stock was not listed?

Do you suppose that they would want to get rid of the old stock before stocking the new "listed" product?

They wouldn't know? It would be hard to believe that any company would stock products that are not recognized by a 90.7 testing agencies.

My point was to identify what I saw as the reason for the low price.

I can recall seeing boxes of the old Romex for sale long ago when the rule was revised to required 90/60 insulation/ampacity, I suppose that was because the 1985 availability of the new products would not allow the old stuff to be used.

Section 90.4 added a new 3rd sentence that would allow the AHJ to accept previous products if the new products were not available yet.

Note the word "may' it didn't say "shall" at all.

Understand now?
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Old 12-30-2006, 07:18 PM   #10
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Re: 12/2 Uf-b W Ground What Is It?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeTedesco View Post
What if the salesperson told them that their UF-B cable stock was not listed?

Do you suppose that they would want to get rid of the old stock before stocking the new "listed" product?

They wouldn't know? It would be hard to believe that any company would stock products that are not recognized by a 90.7 testing agencies.
Oh, I totally understand your point. My point is YES, I do think they would want to get rid of old stock before re-stocking.

Do you seriously think a local store, or large home center for that matter, cares about 90.7 testing? They care about turning over product.

Also, from what I have seen in recent years, sales people are a thing of the past. A retailer calls their warehouse and orders what they need to special order or restock.
Even if there are regional sales folks to local small stores, do you think they as well would care about 90.7 testing? I think not.
They ship out to the retail stores what the manufacturer ships to them.


Again, this is simply a difference of opinion. I just think the UF was old stock and they never raised the price to today's standards.
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Old 12-30-2006, 08:01 PM   #11
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Re: 12/2 Uf-b W Ground What Is It?


I believe that a major company such as the Home Depot will be concerned about their products, and they have specific requirements that must be followed:

Here's a bit of that from their manual:

"That all merchandise conforms and complies with all applicable Laws, including but not limited to the Consumer Product Safety Act; Magnuson – Moss Warranty – Federal Trade Commission Improvement Act; Fair Packaging and Labeling Act; Textile Fiber Products Identification Act; Flammable Fabrics Act; Wool Products Labeling Act; Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetics Act; Federal Hazardous Substances Act; all Federal Trade Commission Rules and Regulations; and the standards of Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (including all language requirements) or such other testing laboratory approved by The Home Depot. Supplier agrees to provide The Home Depot with a signed guaranty form with respect to the above warranties if prescribed by any Law as part of Supplier’s invoice before payment is required to be made under the terms of the Order without loss of
discount; ..... "


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Old 12-30-2006, 08:25 PM   #12
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Re: 12/2 Uf-b W Ground What Is It?


If anyone was ever concerned about their product, they could be concerned about what yutzes they sell the product too and what yutzes they have working there giving advice and how to's.

My County has an unwritten rule that any central heating gas appliance can only be sold to licensed heating contractor who are licensed in this county. The home pepots will not sell a furnace in this county or those insane non vented gas logs.

I think when we talk about criminal and illegal bootlegging we could point the finger at zillion dollar corps that encourage these bootleggers.

I also have some issues with the terms "criminal" and "illegal" and believe those terms should be used carefully. Our county lost a large suit because an inspector overstepped his authority. But that would be for another thread.
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Old 12-31-2006, 03:23 AM   #13
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Re: 12/2 Uf-b W Ground What Is It?


Unlicensed Persons are not criminals, and do not do illegal work?

TDLR Issues First Two C&D Orders For Unlicensed Electrical Work
With 100,000 Electricians Licensed, TDLR Refocusing Efforts to Enforcement
July 27, 2005
For Immediate Release
Contact: Patrick Shaughnessy
512-463-3208

AUSTIN – The criminal background checks are complete and more than 100,000 electrician licenses have been issued. With state licensing of electricians now a reality, the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation (TDLR) is refocusing its efforts from issuing electrician licenses to pursuing enforcement against individuals who are performing electrical work without a license.

TDLR has issued cease and desist orders to businesses in Houston and Streetman, requiring them to stop performing any electrical work unless and until they obtain an electrical license. These were the first two such orders issued by TDLR under the state’s electrician licensing program, which was created by the 78 th Texas Legislature and took effect on September 1, 2004.

“Up until recently our efforts have been focused on getting eligible electricians licensed,” said William Kuntz, TDLR’s executive director. “We now have issued more than 100,000 electrician licenses and eligible electricians have had ample time to obtain a license. The next step in the natural evolution of this program is to begin cracking down on people who are performing electrical work but who can’t or won’t get a license.”

House Bill 1487, which was passed by the 78 th Texas Legislature, makes performing unlicensed electrical work an administrative violation punishable by a fine. House Bill 1317, passed by the 79 th Texas Legislature, also makes it a violation to offer to perform regulated electrical work without a license. “Offering” can be as simple as running a newspaper advertisement.

“Our enforcement efforts so far have concentrated on keeping people with serious criminal records out of consumers’ homes by performing criminal background checks on all applicants and revoking licenses obtained with false statements,” Kuntz said. “Now we are redirecting those efforts. The law says you need a license to do residential or commercial electrical work. We are going to enforce the law.”

Since TDLR began issuing electrician licenses in March 2004, the agency conducted more than 102,000 criminal background checks and almost 200 applicants have been denied licenses based on criminal convictions for violent crimes or crimes of moral turpitude, such as theft or sexual assault. TDLR also has revoked six electrician licenses based on false statements in the application, and 16 individuals have surrendered their licenses when they were notified TDLR was opening an investigation into their applications.


Last edited by JoeTedesco; 12-31-2006 at 03:28 AM. Reason: TDLR Issues First Two C&D Orders For Unlicensed Electrical Work
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