Cut Outs At Outlets

Pearce Services

Did a demo on a flooded basement, cut the sheetrock and insulation out up to 32", I was done. The HO had contracted a french drain install, then used a local sheetrocker to finish the project.

I did not notice when I did the demo, that the electrical boxes were not installed to be flush with the finished wall, they were proud 1/4"-1/2of the studs, for a 1/2" sheetrock finish. I guess the original installers were not effected by this as the outlets were not installed when they did their work.

Here's the options, DO You.....

1) Rock it in, and let the HO deal with it later. not leaving enough rock so that the tabs of the outlets have something to hold them flush.

2) Move the boxes forward to get the 1/2" required.

3) Rotate the outlets, cut the rock tight , then refasten the outlets with the tabs over sheetrock?

Opt #1 is the easiest, and quickest, and the hardest for the HO to finish out because all the tabs need to be shimmed out since the rock is not behind the tabs. Opt #2, and #3 involve electrical work, but the job would be complete upon painting and reinstalling covers

Another Question, when replacing rock, Who's job is it to retighten the outlets and switches?

In this case the rocker chose Opt #1. My take is that the rockers are wrong, my brother thinks that they did what they could, and the original electrician is to blame.

mdshunk

I don't understand the question. You say that the device boxes are proud of the stud 1/4-1/2", and the finish material is 1/2" sheetrock. Sounds normal to me. For this type of work, it is most normal to break all the ears off the old devices or remove the devices entirely for the sheetrock process. Replace the devices after mud and paint. You can't properly cut sheetrock out around device boxes that contain devices. This job sounds screwed up anyhow, as it seems that the homeowner is trying to play GC on this one, and they've dropped the ball. If a GC was running it, he'd have a sparky kill power and remove devices, GC tears out rock and dries insulation, rocker installs new rock and finish, GC or painter paints, sparky puts new devices back on, GC or trim carp puts base back. (or something along those lines) I think the homeowner playing GC missed a few steps.

Are you saying the sheetrockers installed the rock right over the device ears, and didn't fasten the rock back against the stud? If that's the case, they need thrown in the stockade. That's hack work. If they had trouble with the devices, they should have stopped right there.

Pearce Services

Mostly they left the rock far enough away from the ears that the rock cleared, the problem is now that the rock is not behind the ears so the outlets fall back to the boxes when tightened. When the covers are installed, the outlets are flush to the plate on the bottoms, and 1/4" or so in back of the plates on the top, as the outlets are no longer plumb.

thom

You can shim all the devices then install coverplates. Pain in the ass but will be fine. MD's correct, devices should have been removed. If the sheetrock is overcut, it's because the GC dropped the ball. Now the GC can pay to fix it. If that's the homeowner, that's the price of trying to save a buck.

I don't feel sorry for homeowner GC's. They decided to absorb the risk and make the money. They lost. Oh well. I don't ask the homeowner to pay for my mistakes, I'm surely not going to pay for his.

theworx

[QUOTE=thom;168954]You can shim all the devices then install coverplates.


Right on the money!!! In theory, (from what my electrician friends have told me) the outlet should be solidly mounted to the box and not rely on the drywall to make it solid. In fact the little tabs (ears) on the outlets are there to be used as washers (that's why they have holes and a crease to be able to snap them off). If a box is not even with the finished surface you break off the tabs and use them as washers (shims) to even it out.

A great idea if you have quite a bit of shimming to do (1/4" - 1/2") is to use 1/4" copper pipe and use a plumbers pipe cutter to make your shims (washers). Make sure you use the pipe cutter to make square cuts so the outlet will sit squarely on the box. To me this would be the easiest fix...

C.C.R.

My present customer is trying to act as the GC while I'm finishing his log home. He makes it very hard to go to work happy. The framer won't even take his calls anymore. Don't give him an ounce of pity or free labor. By acting as his own GC he rolled the dice and lost. Just fulfill your contract, get paid, and run like the wind.

__________________
Complete Custom Remodeling
"When Quality is Top Priority"
www.completecustomremodeling.com

CapeTaper

Hi PS,
I get this all the time. I router around the ears on the outlets. They can then insert the screws into the box and leave slack enough for the cover plates to snug up and pull the outlets through the plate holes. I admit its not the ideal way to do it, but if that was important to the GC or customer, they would have pulled the outlets. Most times I have no problems doing it this way. They can always head for Home Depot to get some of those slightly oversized plates to cover any gaps. I've seen them plenty of times, they're not huge goofy looking plates, just a little bigger than the standard plate.
All for now -
CapeTaper

Pearce Services

I appreciate the opinions.

This HO in this case is an old friend, I did the demo for him, and because he is 130 mile round trip, I let him get his own guys for the completion.
I really do not believe that most people would hire a general contractor, and an electrician to assist in the replacement of a 32" high band of sheetrock in a partially finished basement. He had a rocker that said he could handle the project, and I feel should have left the job complete.
This was not a matter of the HO "cheaping out". In fact he wasnt even complaining, he just ask how to get the outlets to look right. I posted the question on this forum to see how most pro rockers would handle the situation.

Same question, different angle, If you were asked to replace 20 sheets of rock 32" high in a partially finished basement, on a job not covered by insurance, would you insist that the HO find a GC, and a licensed electrician, pull permits, get wiring inspection, insulation inspection, etc?

LennyV-NHSNOLA

Home Depot and I'm sure others sell a pack of outlet shims. Little yellow 1/8" thick little tabs with a hole through them. About 10 shims on a strip and you tear off how many you think you need, accordion fold them and they snap together with little tabs, then slide them on the screw and fasten.

I personally like to make really good cuts around a box so that the ears do sit flush on the rock which aids the outlet in being "level" and not canted one way or the other.

I'm not sure why the 32" gut line was established but it seems that 48" would have been easier to tear out and replace.

Down here in the burbs of New Orleans, post-Katrina, I always unscrew the outlets and kind of pull them out a little so one end is sticking into the box and the other end sticks almost straight out the box. Then we put the rock up. Then we screw the outlet back on with the ears on the surface of the rock. I've seen other crews just mount the top screws on the rock and use the rotary saws to cut out around the box, outlet and ears. Then the shims are the only fix. The other problem with that is the hole around the entire box/outlet needs an oversized cover plate and even then the plates weren't big enough. I've advised many HO's that while I'd be happy to fix all the outlet openings, they should make the contractor come back and fix their crappy work to save the next HO the headaches.

theworx

[QUOTE=LennyV-NHSNOLA;169291]

I'm not sure why the 32" gut line was established but it seems that 48" would have been easier to tear out and replace.

Down here in the burbs of New Orleans, post-Katrina, I always unscrew the outlets and kind of pull them out a little so one end is sticking into the box and the other end sticks almost straight out the box. Then we put the rock up. Then we screw the outlet back on with the ears on the surface of the rock.

If you cut out and replaced at 48" you would have a beveled edge against a non beveled edge. Would be more difficult to tape (although easily done by a good taper). For the ten seconds it takes to cut a sheet, it's worth it for an easier taping job.

I do the same thing when boarding and outlets are already installed. Takes a little more time but is the right way to do it. Make sure you tape the outlet with electrical tape if power is live (can't count how many times I've gotten zapped or grounded the outlet against the box) ...

mdshunk

Why would 'not covered by insurance' be your excuse to do half shod work? Yes, I would absolutely expect you do hire all those folks and pull permits if they are required in your area. Anything less is criminal. This is a very common job when basements flood in my area, and I do a dozen or so each year (from the electrical standpoint). Are you aware that NEMA has a white paper with regard to flooded basements and electrical wiring? Here's the link to the free download: http://www.nema.org/stds/water-damaged.cfm

Pearce Services

MD, I agree that the work done was not good, and thanks for the link, they only got 4" of water, and now have a french drain so they should not ever have this issue again.

I appreciate the way you approach your work. In Mass I believe a homeowner can loosen and tighten the screws to his own outlets, so I do not think that anything criminal happened, I am just curious to hear how a professional rocker would have handled walking into a job that had outlets installed, would they do the work, or walk away. I just think his rocker did not do the right thing here.