Boxes Vs Hawk And Trowel

d's

Hey guys,

I've recently stepped into the auto tools world by buying a bazooka and am now considering getting into boxes. i've been using a hawk and 10" trowel for 1st and 2nd coating for ever and so am wondering if the boxes are really that much faster - especially when it seems most guys need to wipe behind their boxes anyway, added tool clean up, maintenance, cost etc.... How much more/less mud does a box hold compared to a loaded up hawk?

Looking for answers from those that have used both.

Thanks,
D'S

Jeremy B

I have been boxing occasionally for the last two years. If my first pass leaves a couple of bubbles or some other inconsistency, I just run the box over it again right away. I quickly run my radius sander over my flats between coats. Having learned on a hawk and trowel when I was 15, I would have to say that I am pretty fast with them. Boxing is way faster as long as the job is big enough. It is also more consistent.
As far as how much mud the box holds, it holds enough.
The best thing to do is to watch someone boxing on a jobsite near you. That is the way to get an idea of the speed. Youtube has videos of guys running boxes as well. Hope this helps.

Jeremy

CrpntrFrk

Boxes are fast! When you can go from one corner to another on a 16' wall in 5 seconds with a box....... you be the judge. I use knife and pan and consider myself to be somewhat fast and I would take the boxes any time.
The only time I go over where I have boxed is in the corners or the seam is extremely uneven. Buy the boxes.... you will be very satisfied...IMO.

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d's

Thanks for the info,

Another question I had was how quick the learning curve was. Teaching someone to use hawk and trowel can be a sloppy and long process. Is it something you could train a new guy up on pretty quick?

What about final coat. Right now I'm rolling on super thinned out mix and pulling off with 12" knife. Does final coating with a 12" box need much sanding and leave a near perfect finish?

thanks,
D'S

oldrivers

in my opinion the boxes are the fastest of the tools. infact if i were to buy the tools in phases id buy the boxes and pump first. then whatever later.

d's

interesting, I assumed the bazooka would have made the biggest difference.

CrpntrFrk

The learning curve on the boxes is not that bad(IMO) but the bazooka takes a bit longer. I started out with a banjo and purchased a finishing set(10",12" boxes, corner roller and andle head) before a bazooka. Did that set up for awhile until I decided to purchase the bazooka.
The final coat is pretty smooth. I only sand where I had to go the opposite direction on a seam. It creates a little wave that needs to be sanded. I suggest going to www.all-wall.com for all your needs. Great selection and service.

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critter

Speaking of bovine feces, the degree would be a doctorate! :-) Although there could exist a doctrine regarding bull excrement, since we builders tend to shoot it at some length and with some regularity.

CrpntrFrk

doc⋅trine  /ˈdɒktrɪn/ [dok-trin]

–noun 1.a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government2.something that is taught; teachings collectively3.a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject
Ah someone finally caught it!

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AARC Drywall

box's are great, will never go to a hawk and trowel...have a sub that does everything by hand, we had the same house side by side, it took him 2 weeks to coat and finish 7500bf of drywall, and it took me 6 days. Exact same homes.
That is what the box's and tubes, flushers etc will save you. TIME.

If you spend say 3000.00 on tools, (good ones) you will have that paid off in less than 6 months easily, and if you dont like them the tools are still worth a mint used.

J

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d's

Hey Jay,

Noticed in another post that you went with Columbia. Do you use all three sizes of boxes? Do you wish you had gone with the fat boys right off the bat, if so for which sizes. Were the bead boxers worth it? Whatcha using for handle sizes - is it better to have just one adjustable handle?

thanks,
D'S

AARC Drywall

Yup i went with Columbia, and they are awesome
I purchased 7", 10" , and 12" and they threw in a Fat boy 10"
no the bead boxers are not worth it...it might be if your corner (Square ) was plastic. They are really tough to use. They are all right to get the mud on the bead, but not like the advertisement says. Still have to smooth with 10" trowel though....maybe more pratice... I have a 42" straight handle, and it works fine, however i may go for a curved handel, so that you do not have to push as hard. The extendable handles would be nice on 9' ceilnigs, but i use my stilts and load from off a sawhorse.
All in all i love my columbia tools, i have had no downtime because of them, and they seem to be worth every penny. I could have gone with cheaper tools, but....I would rather spend the $6000.00 bucks on good quality tools that will last for years, not some cheap a tools that you will have to fix in a week. Just my thoughts. I have more than paid for my tools in less than 6 months.

J

p.s sorry yes i do use all sizes. 7 for first, 10 for second and 12 for finish, with minor touch ups.

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Capt-Sheetrock

As one that started out using hawk and trowel, I believe that boxes, tapers, and corner tools are like going from a horse and buggy to a pick-up truck.

I use a 7 8 and 10 the 7 is a drywall master and the 8 and 10 are columbia fat boys. I love the fat boys cause they hold more mud. I use the 8 fat boy for the bed coat, cause it holds more mud, the 7 is a regular box and will run out of mud too fast over tape.I then run the 7 box for the second coat (over the 8, I refer it as a "back-skim), followed by the 10 for the final coat. You can run just two coats, but the boxes are so fast that the "back-skim" takes care of any weak or low spots. I don't use a 12 box at all, IMHO I think its a waste of time and unnessacary, the bevel is only 6" wide.

I tried the bead boxers and discarded them also. In fact, I run the first coat on the beads with a 8" trowel and the second coat with an 8" knife. the trowel does the best job of filling and the knife does the best job of finishing (unless I am using my alpha-tech coaters) because I find it too tough to run beads with boxes and the result is less than good.

The adjustable handle is great for all 8 and 9 ft jobs, I have a 6 ft handle that I use for 10 ft ceilings.

Good luck, just go for it

oldrivers

well i use both the hawk and trowel and boxes on bigger stuff, thing is were doing a pretty good size remodel almost a complete teardown and rebuild about 2 million, 400 plus sheets ,anyways the house was to big for us cause we have other jobs going on so we did the upper level with all the no coat tricky ceiling angles about 27 of them and we subed out the lower2 levels to the mexicans crew, anyways we both used the boxes but we had to go and re run all their beads cause they werent very good at using the hawk and trowel.. moral of the story learn how to use hand tools before you get the autos. you still need to know how to coat by hand things you cant use boxes on. speed doesnt always equal profit in the end. and we just started another complete tear down and rebuild 1 mill plus. we only use the boxes though no bazookas or angle tools although theres nothing wrong with them if used correctly.

i think its important to use the hawk and trowel and then use the boxes after you become a master .

Aaron111

whats a hawk trowel

Darren@Partners

Hawk vs Boxes? Hawks are for plaster or stucco (at least in the midwest). You have to be using boxes every day to pay for them, a must for full-time finishers on footage jobs. If you're new to the trade go w/ a mud pan(stainless and braised, avoid the spot welded ones) They also come in plastic w/ a metal strip in the edge. Plastics advantage is warmer to grab on to in cold weather and steel will bend. Try one of each. Also pans clean up easier than boxes and zero maintainence.

AARC Drywall

If you are new, you will not be able to afford the box's, but the box's will make you more money in the long term than pan and trowel. That is a proven fact. With 10" box i can coat a 1100sq foot house in less than 1 hour. I am sure that you can't coat by had that fast.
Just my 2c worth, but if you can afford the tools get them, but do keep in mind that there will be times that you will have to use a trowl.

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Profit is NOT a dirty word....Cheap is....

Darren@Partners

After seeing d's rates he can afford all the boxes he wants. AARC is right, boxes are blazin', & Mudrunner maybe the best time saver of all. Antbody else tried these pnuematic tools (Apla makes one) that pushes mud from a central unit through a material hose? Really expensive, think you'd have to do Apts full-time to make them pay. Saw a new one that coat mud-on bead(gee I hate that stuff), fills boxes and tapers, even sprays text, does about everything except....

Mudshark

Run your 10" and mud er up good, follow the next day with the 12". A light sand to knock down the bump where your box runs meet is usually all that is needed.

Speed and quality can't be beat.

Use the adjustable handle.