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Violating the codes with corregated metal wall ties

17K views 90 replies 23 participants last post by  Tom Struble 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
As i was visiting the job pictures on this site i ran across one posted that made me cringe. Those pictures of the rather large fireplace being built clearly depicted the violation of every code i know of that dictates the approved method to tie facing material to the C.M.U. backup. The pictures as big as life of the corregated metal ties hanging out of the block is a huge code violation. Corregated metal wall ties are for veneer over wood studs only period. If you are not driving nails through them into WOOD STUDS leave them in the gang box. The codes violated were ACI 530-99 /ASE 5-99/ TMS 402-99. On a job site close by a code official caught work in progress that did the same thing and required the building to be torn down and rebuilt correctly! Where was the architect on this job (it was large enough to warrant supervision) On the drawings (under MANDATORY specifications checklist in the ACI CODE 530 notes to architect/ engineer) Specify the location, spacing,& type of accessories not indicated on the project drawings. It is quite clear there were more then one asleep at the wheel.
 
#4 · (Edited by Moderator)
As i was visiting the job pictures on this site i ran across one posted on 02-18-2011 at 03:38pm that made me cringe. Those pictures of the rather large fireplace being built clearly depicted the violation of every code i know of that dictates the approved method to tie facing material to the C.M.U. backup. The pictures as big as life of the corregated metal ties hanging out of the block is a huge code violation. Corregated metal wall ties are for veneer over wood studs only period. If you are not driving nails through them into WOOD STUDS leave them in the gang box. The codes violated were ACI 530-99 /ASE 5-99/ TMS 402-99. On a job site close by a code official caught work in progress that did the same thing and required the building to be torn down and rebuilt correctly! Where was the architect on this job (it was large enough to warrant supervision) On the drawings (under MANDATORY specifications checklist in the ACI CODE 530 notes to architect/ engineer) Specify the location, spacing,& type of accessories not indicated on the project drawings. It is quite clear there were more then one asleep at the wheel.

I told you in the other thread you were trying to hijack that WI residential code doesn't reference any of those that they apparently violated.
 
#26 ·
maybe your location would help ?
It really would. If you were't asked before. Please.
I'm guessing Michigan?


FJN -

Let me be blunt. I think it is pretty clear to almost everyone that has taken the time to read your various posts through the various threads what the problem is. It is not that you have 11 or 26 posts or whatever, we have warmly welcomed many with less posts than that.
L
The main problem is that you have come into our social circle as an abrasive, mildly confrontational, know it all. Now in any social circle of friends this does not go over real well, whether it be marriage, work, AA, or the internet. Now hopefully you are not like this in real life and you just have poor english skills and come across poorly. Don't let this overflow of accessible energy get to your head.

I'm not saying this to be mean, but to clear up the confusion which you seem to operating in.

BTW: Are you and bwalley brothers?
Concur.

Meanwhile...




D.
 
#9 ·
What to use

The masonry advisory council explains that the fastner should have a higher withdrawl strength then common nails. At the least they should be spiral or ring shank. Screws would be the prefered fastner.That is what they advise on S.I.P. wall systems because of the less amount of wood (no studs)
 
#11 ·
we do not count

TSCARBOUGH What you or i or for that matter any other guy on the jobsite thinks does not matter. I can not remember the last time,no wait the first time a code official asked me what i thought. What we are talking about is the code.
 
#13 ·
TSCARBOUGH What you or i or for that matter any other guy on the jobsite thinks does not matter. I can not remember the last time,no wait the first time a code official asked me what i thought. What we are talking about is the code.
Thankfully, we don't have masons and/or inspectors from Illinois of Indiana inspecting our residential work here. How about you provide the code violation by number under the WI UDC Resi 1 & 2 Family code??? Or how about you read it before you carry on with this non-sense?
 
#14 ·
hooks and eyes

J. B. M. There are adjustible (hook& eyes) that will accommondate differences in coursing heights (to a degree) All these issues need to be brought up at pre-construction meetings ,when all concerns can be worked out with all design professionls. Plan your work and work your plan.
 
#15 ·
J. B. M. There are adjustible (hook& eyes) that will accommondate differences in coursing heights (to a degree) All these issues need to be brought up at pre-construction meetings ,when all concerns can be worked out with all design professionls. Plan your work and work your plan.
I'm familiar with the ties used in block buildings. I am surprised actually that people arnt using standard ties in chimneys.
 
#17 ·
Well FJN, it sounds to me like you have some knowledge but not much experience. A fair part of my time is involved with technical code violations and missed specifications, primarily commercial, and 99.9% of the time the issue is resolved in place. The only tear downs I can think of in 20 odd years were an instance where the mason "forgot" to use wall ties at all, and another where the architect refused to accept a block color, and neither involved a remotely complete project.

As I stated, in my County, brick ties are acceptable for that application and I gave the proper and acceptable ways to use them using the most basic code of all: Common Sense.
 
#18 ·
what does this have to do with common sense

Tscarborough Do not try to kill me. I am just the messinger. No one is saying the code official was right or wrong. I was only relating the facts on the site i directed J.B.M. to earlier. All of this discussion as to what anyone saw in 20yrs. is a mute topic. The crux of the issue here is not how to fix a problem,it is how to not have one in the first place. As far as common sense is concerned, we do not decide what is or is not considered common sense. Right or wrong the code official gets to do that. Regarding experience ,i have enough not to even try to argue with a code official. Just for the record i'am not trying to convince you or anyone of my point of view. Do you understand that? There is a old saying that goes like this. When we relinquish our need to convince others of our point of view we will gain access to a tremendous amount of energy that was previously inaccessible to us. I enjoy accessing that energy. What about you?
 
#19 ·
I work in the field, and work to get things built. The main problem on jobsites is an adversarial relationship between all interested parties, and that is really my primary skill: Working with people to realize the goals of a project, and not the minutiae.

In the example you have quoted, and as you have stated, the determining factor is the pull out strength of the tie. So what is the detail that has to be determined? Is it what the specification states or the code reads or is it the capability of the field work to meet the standard of performance for the design?


Learning a building code is a good thing, and following it is better. Understanding the purpose and intent is what really counts though.

What is the primary purpose of a wall tie in cavity veneer construction?
 
#20 ·
off track

Tscarborough In strictly my perspective ,you are either intentionly or inadvertently getting off track. It would be pure conjecture on my part to venture a guess. However if or when you become a code official is when you get to interpret the purpose and intent of the code. Until then someone else gets to do that. Why are you having such a hard time with that? To deflect the issue does not change things,as much as one would like. Aleast for me to continue this banter is nonproductive.However with 4554 postings i can see that you have a innate propensity to have the last word. There most likely will be one more posting from you. Let us see what transpires.:censored:
 
#22 · (Edited)
FJN -

Let me be blunt. I think it is pretty clear to almost everyone that has taken the time to read your various posts through the various threads what the problem is. It is not that you have 11 or 26 posts or whatever, we have warmly welcomed many with less posts than that.

The main problem is that you have come into our social circle as an abrasive, mildly confrontational, know it all. Now in any social circle of friends this does not go over real well, whether it be marriage, work, AA, or the internet. Now hopefully you are not like this in real life and you just have poor english skills and come across poorly. Don't let this overflow of accessible energy get to your head.

I'm not saying this to be mean, but to clear up the confusion which you seem to be operating in.
 
#23 ·
As i was visiting the job pictures on this site i ran across one posted that made me cringe. Those pictures of the rather large fireplace being built clearly depicted the violation of every code i know of that dictates the approved method to tie facing material to the C.M.U. backup. The pictures as big as life of the corregated metal ties hanging out of the block is a huge code violation. Corregated metal wall ties are for veneer over wood studs only period. If you are not driving nails through them into WOOD STUDS leave them in the gang box. The codes violated were ACI 530-99 /ASE 5-99/ TMS 402-99. On a job site close by a code official caught work in progress that did the same thing and required the building to be torn down and rebuilt correctly! Where was the architect on this job (it was large enough to warrant supervision) On the drawings (under MANDATORY specifications checklist in the ACI CODE 530 notes to architect/ engineer) Specify the location, spacing,& type of accessories not indicated on the project drawings. It is quite clear there were more then one asleep at the wheel.

Regardless of what "you know", you really need to connect these two things with proof for this thread to have any legitamacy. Can you prove that the corrugated wall ties in question are indeed a violation of the code governing the state in which the chimney resides in ? Personally, I can't regardless of how deep I've looked at the codes for which this project falls under. I actually just got back from a plan commission meeting, where I had the oppurtunity to ask this question of a local building inspector, who according to you, holds the only opinion that really matters on this. He knows of absolutely no residential code in this state that doesn't allow for these kind of wall ties in this kind of application. I'll be waiting with bated breath for the link or verbage that discounts that.............
 
#27 ·
Well... after a lot of second guessing myself, I took some time to check and re-check our Ontario codes.
All is well as it turns out, in our area, corrugated metal ties are acceptable as a means of anchoring masonry veneer to a CMU wall or fireplace.
Different strokes .... etc. etc.
 
#31 ·
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