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Violating the codes with corregated metal wall ties

17K views 90 replies 23 participants last post by  Tom Struble 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
As i was visiting the job pictures on this site i ran across one posted that made me cringe. Those pictures of the rather large fireplace being built clearly depicted the violation of every code i know of that dictates the approved method to tie facing material to the C.M.U. backup. The pictures as big as life of the corregated metal ties hanging out of the block is a huge code violation. Corregated metal wall ties are for veneer over wood studs only period. If you are not driving nails through them into WOOD STUDS leave them in the gang box. The codes violated were ACI 530-99 /ASE 5-99/ TMS 402-99. On a job site close by a code official caught work in progress that did the same thing and required the building to be torn down and rebuilt correctly! Where was the architect on this job (it was large enough to warrant supervision) On the drawings (under MANDATORY specifications checklist in the ACI CODE 530 notes to architect/ engineer) Specify the location, spacing,& type of accessories not indicated on the project drawings. It is quite clear there were more then one asleep at the wheel.
 
#35 ·
why wouldn't you reply to the threads you supposedly saw something you think is wrong? why would you start a new thread to tell us how stupid we are? have you ever posted any examples of your fine workmanship?

use you head for god sakes and come on here like a gentleman while your speaking to gentlemen

you may be the best mason ever or you may be sitting in a pile mud in your panties...how do we know?
 
#36 ·
Walls ties are used all the time around here in commercial work. Just not for cavity wall construction. Hook and eye wire for CMU back up walls. Sure-ties or DW-10's for stick/steel framed back up walls in cavity wall construction. Wall ties are used at intersecting CMU walls to tie them together. I have not used a wall tie in a cavity wall in a long time. In either residential or commercial work. They are just never specified as an approved anchor around here.

With that being said, FJN try being alittle more personable around here. This place is not a pissing contest. Discussion is what this place is here for and we do not always agree but for the most part we keep it civil and non-condescending. Enjoy the site.
 
#39 ·
Intersecting C.M.U. walls

N. J. BRICKIE If you guys are using wall ties to bond intersecting C.M. U. walls, i implore you to use pre-formed T wire that is exactly what it is made for. Also the same companies that make those (there numerous) produce pre-formed corner wire .
 
#45 ·
N. J. BRICKIE If you guys are using wall ties to bond intersecting C.M. U. walls, i implore you to use pre-formed T wire that is exactly what it is made for. Also the same companies that make those (there numerous) produce pre-formed corner wire .
I know what preformed T wire is and what it it used for. We also use that at times. It all depends on what is allowed and what is spec-ed. I am sure T wire is more effective, but if that is not what the customer paid for they will not get it.
 
#40 ·
first impressions

N.J. BRICKIE; You know what, people usually respond others in kind. I was welcomed to this site by a GENTELMAN who refered to me at that time as MR. 10 posts. He then was kind enough to inform me in a condesending fashion how i was "attempting" to argue with the (KINGPIN) of the site because he has 4000+ postings and i had a mere 10. This was quite obvious that atleast in his myopic perspective the interest lie in volume not in content. As hard as this might be to believe, the very next day, one of my posting was refered to a 1rh.12 minute masterpiece,(i'am still trying to figure what that meant) and that sir,as the saying goes got the ball rolling. The rest as they say is history. This was my introduction to this forward thinking group! In my humble opinion monopoly of anything,government,resourses,buisness,etc.is not a good thing.
 
#43 ·
You know what, people usually respond others in kind.
I've got to agree with that one.

I'm a somewhat newer member and don't have a dog in this hunt. My casual observation is that people are responding in kind to your rather unfriendly style.

In another thread you engaged in kind of a "shaming" post;

I was just going back over a few topics today. I ran across pictures . That was a pretty good size fireplace you were building. I just wanted to bring it to your attention along with all the viewers that the use of corrugated metal wall ties are NEVER permited with ANY facing material ever.
(bolds my emphasis-willy)

Hey, I don't know the answer. I think you may be correct on certain jobs and in certain jurisdictions. I think you are painting with a pretty broad brush when you state the "fact" that the ties are never, ever, permitted anywhere. I assume that is even in places where no code exists or where such code exists but the issue of ties is not defined or addressed. This even seems to be in contrast to what other members report about their own local code. So far as code goes I would also want "facing material" to be better defined than you did; just a blanket denial.

It looks to me as though the actual truth of the matter is that such wall ties may be forbidden in some circumstances, it is then appropriate to list those types of jobs, be it federal or state funded, or by area adopted code.

Understand, I think you are right, in some circumstances. I just think you are wrong because it isn't in all circumstances, forever and ever, across the universe. : )

Sooooooo..... my view is that information is being possibly incorrectly offered as "fact" without proper qualifiers.

In addition you come off as kinda hostile and seem intent upon proving yourself as "right", labeling others as wrong and a little lacking in basic human relations skills.

After you read ALL the papers presented at the 2005 LIME SYMPOSIUM you will possibly sing a different tune. You dont have to believe me i have nothing to gain or lose by your belief or disbelief. However if you close your mind to the possibily that there is a difference then you have a closed mind thats all.
It's hard to have an exchange of information under such circumstances. It's not information exchange, its a dual to the death. :rolleyes:

Ask yourself; does this only happen in professional forums or are you often engaged in such turmoil?

Some people bring joy wherever they go, and some people bring joy whenever they go.” - Mark Twain.

Which one are you?

There is a better way for you to communicate all that you think you know.

Willy
 
#42 ·
I need to put my dictionary down. Too many new words I had to look up.

I know nothing about wall ties and what kind are supposed to be used, but I do know that different parts of the country have different applications. Even next state over. Hell, maybe next county.

The point is, you may just be right. And it is possible that everyone is right. You are telling everyone that they are using the wrong tie. They are telling you that it is perfectly acceptable where they are, code wise.

I've read TScar's posts for years and he has demonstrated knowledge in the masonry field that is second to none.

I've read your posts and have seen nothing that demonstrates knowledge pertaining to nationally acceptable code and/or practices.

I've seen many members come on here and in 2 posts have demonstrated their extensive capabilities. How they went about it is vastly different than the way you are going about it. One word describes the difference: influence.
 
#47 · (Edited)
I have used rigid steel ties in the past also. This area is not prone to earthquakes/hurricanes so alot of types of reinforcement are not used frequently. When we do see reinforcement out of the ordinary (excessive sized/amount re-bar, excessive grout, rigid steel ties) it tends to be for government work or from an architect/engineer that is not from the area. Seems like some of the national chains used a "cookie cutter" type approach to engineering in the past. Where their buildings could be built anywhere with the specs they were using, not catering them to be site specific. Things have changed though in my experience and they are now individually engineering buildings to specific regions.

The wall ties are used for intersecting non-load bearing walls. They are used for load bearing walls but are usually used in conjunction with one or multiple continuous bond beams.
 
#49 ·
Fj, I think your heart is in the right place, but your head ain't following.

Lot's of guys get off to a rough start finding themselves on this forum and new members who come off as overly aggressive, know it alls,... will soon feel the wrath.

Many knowledgeable people on this forum take pride in what they do so I'm sure you can understand that. Nobody likes being force fed information that's delivered with a sharp tongue that seems ready for combat.

Your obviously somewhat of a smart guy who could probably further this forum with content and dialog - just wish you'd change the context of the delivery.

Personally, I think if you worded your observations differently in the first post - you could have really ran with this and gained some of the respect your obviously looking for... not that there's anything wrong with that :no:

In conclusion, I didn't like the Mr 10 post comment either, but realize that many people come and go on this site and post count is only one of the barometers used in gauging.

I, for one, welcome you to the site and hope you can understand what i'm saying.
 
#51 · (Edited)
Fj, I think your heart is in the right place, but your head ain't following.

Lot's of guys get off to a rough start finding themselves on this forum and new members who come off as overly aggressive, know it alls,... will soon feel the wrath.

Many knowledgeable people on this forum take pride in what they do so I'm sure you can understand that. Nobody likes being force fed information that's delivered with a sharp tongue that seems ready for combat.

Your obviously somewhat of a smart guy who could probably further this forum with content and dialog - just wish you'd change the context of the delivery.

Personally, I think if you worded your observations differently in the first post - you could have really ran with this and gained some of the respect your obviously looking for... not that there's anything wrong with that :no:

In conclusion, I didn't like the Mr 10 post comment either, but realize that many people come and go on this site and post count is only one of the barometers used in gauging.

I, for one, welcome you to the site and hope you can understand what i'm saying.
Good points. Post numbers are irrelevant and its about the quality of the comment that mattters...like Tscar mentioned. Obviously, people do things differently, technique and skill levels vary..all these factors can shape opinions. Throwing out black and white statements will bring the heat...BUT keeping it civil will offer learning opportunity.
 
#52 ·
post numbers are not irrelevant,they help gauge who your talking to

the mr 10 post just signifies the type of person your dealing with..usually come from an attitude problem

one that plays well with others or one that wants to show how smart they think they are,the later are usually not here very long so i could give 2 shlitz about them

come on here and show alittle respect and respect will be reciprocated...just like in ''real'' life...simple as that
 
#53 ·
Yeah, youre probably not going to get a whole lot of friends when you show up and call someone out on a situation that you think you know everything about. Not too mention in someone elses thread, then you go and start a whole other thread, and basically call the person out again.

Maybe you should start over with a new name and try again.
 
#54 ·
When I first joined, I came on pretty strong about discussing pricing. Not just because it is pretty much pointless, but also because it could be construed as a Sherman violation. I took a lot of heat, and was probably called a "10 post" but I was and am right, and I tried to keep the discussion professional and informational. I did not let it bother me, and still consider this a forum where we can discuss issues that affect us in a calm and rational manner.

We all have something to bring to the table, and I have learned an incredible amount by participating in the discussion.

Now, Answer the question:

What is the purpose of ties in a cavity wall veneer?
 
#57 ·
one more time

Back to the initial post that lead to all this. As time has passed many have visited the MACONLINE.ORG site. Their FAX # is 847-297-8373 . I do not know if one can contact them on line. I'am aware various codes exist. So far the only ones presented came from here. If this is for sharing of knowledge,i'am all for it. So PLEASE share it wiyh me. Here is the one i have talked about. INTERNATIONAL RESIDENTIAL CODE for 1&2 units 2006. Go to section R 608. MULTTIPLE WYTHE MASONRY. R608.1 GENERAL it will reference R608.1.1 R608 1.2 OR R608.1.3 R608.1.1 & R608.1.3 are n/a read them if you wish. Those codes are very precise,and require no interpretation. I truly believe all who visit this site do so for the love of the craft If they did not they would be in gin mill getting into a stupor to blockout their job not reading about it here. Therefore i heartily applaud your efforts. In all seriousness not for the sake of oneupmanship but for the dispersal of knowledge,please share your applicable codes. Thank you in advance.
 
#64 ·
Back to the initial post that lead to all this. As time has passed many have visited the MACONLINE.ORG site. Their FAX # is 847-297-8373 . I do not know if one can contact them on line. I'am aware various codes exist. So far the only ones presented came from here. If this is for sharing of knowledge,i'am all for it. So PLEASE share it wiyh me. Here is the one i have talked about. INTERNATIONAL RESIDENTIAL CODE for 1&2 units 2006. Go to section R 608. MULTTIPLE WYTHE MASONRY. R608.1 GENERAL it will reference R608.1.1 R608 1.2 OR R608.1.3 R608.1.1 & R608.1.3 are n/a read them if you wish. Those codes are very precise,and require no interpretation. I truly believe all who visit this site do so for the love of the craft If they did not they would be in gin mill getting into a stupor to blockout their job not reading about it here. Therefore i heartily applaud your efforts. In all seriousness not for the sake of oneupmanship but for the dispersal of knowledge,please share your applicable codes. Thank you in advance.
You started this whole thread as an attack on another member here and the a project that they worked on. You apparently assumed that the project fell under 2006 IRC standards. The project was actually in Wisconsin, where we operate under our own Uniform Dwelling Codes for residential 1-2 families. I think the onus is on you to either prove that corrugated wall ties are NOT ALLOWED in this situation per WI codes, or you simply appologize for throwing out an ignorant blanket (false) statement................
 
#62 ·
not a cavity wall

STUART 45 There are several reasons this question remains unanswered. First,the wall in question was not a cavity wall by the true sense of the term. If it were attempted to be built as one matters would be even worse. Reasons being,the codes i provided in last post were derived directly from the adoption of NCMA-TEK#60. If one were to read it paying close attention to sec.6O4-3 it clearly explains the limits of a cavity wall. In fact, if the wall in question met that the corregated ties would fall way short, for tie requirements for cavity wall ties. I appreciate your attempt to give me a clue,however the interjection of cavity wall discusion is not on track with the core topic. At some point those who claimed exemption,claiming it was commercial codes will have to address the residential code i provided.When that has been accomplished we can move on to other wall systems. Regards
 
#69 ·
Please post the verbage from the Wi. code that explains the usage of ties in this application T.U.
(7) MASONRY VENEERS. (a) Veneer over frame construction.
1. Masonry veneers may be corbeled over the foundation wall, but
the corbeling shall not exceed one inch.
2. A minimum one−inch air space shall be provided between
the veneer and the sheathing unless a manufactured offset material
is used.
3. Where no brick ledge is formed in the foundation wall, corrosion resistant metal or other water−resistant flashing shall
extend over the top of the foundation wall from the outside face
of the wall and shall extend at least 6 inches up on the sheathing.
The flashing shall be installed to drain any water outward.
4. Weep holes shall be provided at the bottom masonry course
at maximum intervals of 2 feet.
5. Ventilation openings shall be provided at the top of the
wall.
Note: The ventilation opening could be other than a weep hole.
6. Studs and sheathing behind masonry veneer shall be covered with material used to construct the water−resistive barrier as
required under s. Comm 21.24 (4).
Note: Acceptable water−resistive barrier materials include polymeric−based
house wraps and #15 or greater asphalt−saturated felts that comply with ASTM D 226
for type I felt.
7. Masonry or brick veneer shall be above final exterior grade
unless there is through−wall flashing at grade or within 2 courses
above grade.
(b) Veneer over masonry back−up. Corrosion−resistant metal
or other water−resistant base flashing shall be provided at the bottom of the veneer and shall extend over the top of the foundation
and up at least 6 inches and be embedded in the back−up course.
The flashing shall be installed to drain any water outward. Weep
holes shall be provided at maximum intervals of 3 feet.
(c) Veneer attachment. Veneers shall be anchored or adhered
in accordance with ACI 530 and ACI 530.1.





I'm sure you already know that ACI 530 & 530.1 both list corrugated wall ties as an acceptable tie....................
 
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