Stone Veneer Pillars

Rybit

Mind if I step in regards to the mix design of mortar?

This job is being done using adhered stone masonry. Lime was and is an integral part of mix design for anchored stone masonry, but not so much with adhered imo.
Type "S" is what I would use. I'd mix it rich and sticky, for this job with one person mixing and laying I would mix half a bag with 4 to maybe 5 shovels of sand in a wheelbarrow. It would be wet enough that it would want to slip, almost drip off the trowel, but a firm smack on the back of the trowel I just loaded would allow me to flip it upside down and none would come off the trowel. I would scratch coat the block myself, or be vigilant about wetting the block before applying the stone. Not soaking wet, but damp. This will keep the dry surface of the block from sucking water out of my mix prematurely. In adhered masonry the thing is, the application coat must hydrate and form crystals on each side of it. One side at the back of the stone, and one side on the face of the block or scratch coat. A dry block will suck water out and effect the bond. The standard rule for adhered masonry is that it must be under 15 pounds per square foot I believe. Natural stone is on the threshold for that. Since this is natural stone (so it seems) I would in fact want a bit of help thru the aid of a mechanical bond too. So I would apply the scratch/parge coat and then use a 3/8" notched trowel to give me a mechanical bite. It would speed up the setting of the stones. Scratch coat the whole thing and walk away.

Any more of those refreshments around? I'll be right over

artisanstone

I agree about the scratch coat. As far as weight, I've seen 15 lbs and 20 lbs per sq. ft. used as specs. Either way, that limits most natural stone to 1-1.5".

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artisanstone

Oh, and, I don't know what size your shovels are, but 4-5 to a half bag seems way too rich. Based on my shovel size, I would drop it from my standard of 18 to a bag, to about 14-15.

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tkle

For the veneer shown I would also use a type S mixed rich, perhaps with a little thinset spread on the back of the stone. The common I use for river rock and those type of stones.
I think code calls for a maximum of twenty pounds for interior adhered masonry.

Rybit

I understand what your are sayin Artisanstone, but the rich mix is what I have found to work best. I don't think I am alone, especially if you get folks who install manmade veneer talking about it.

6stringmason

I installed thincut veneer a few weeks ago inside a golf shop with just type N mixed a bit rich *shrug*

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stacker

when laying adheered veener stone,i use type n mason,17 shovels of mason sand and one shovel of portland.
i have never seen the need to scratch coat and walk away and come back the next day,with proper backing.i apply a "scratch coat",come back over it with another coat about 1/2 thick,apply stone,grout with grout bag.i will do this over a 15-20 sq ft area.
i have used this mix and process for the last 30 years,and have yet to have any problems.in fact tommorow i am going to set a column back up that was hit by a car.it is a block post covered with adheered veener.it was my first stone job 30 years ago.there was not one stone knocked off from the accident,and the owner wants me to set some rebar dowel pins and mortar it back in place.if i think about it i will post a picture of it.

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Tscarborough

Stacker, you are making a Type S with your formula. You could do the exact same thing by throwing 14 shovels of sand into the bag of Type N masonry.

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chan58

I am not worthy of posting an opinion on this

Here's my opinion.

I'm not sure what you mean by "rich". I suspect that you're referring to ratching up the mortar portion of the mix ratio. This seemed to work for me.

I started out with Type S pre-mix, and found that it was too stiff. I got some Type S mortar, and added it to the pre-mix - that increased the stickiness and workability. I also used a bonding agent/fortifier. This seemed to work well, provided (and this was critical) that the water wasn't too hot (the hose baking in the sun was a no-no). When it became obvious that the bonding agent/fortifier was going to be too expensive, I dropped it.

I have found that misting the block helps, because block is very thirsty. I mist the block, parge it, parge the stone, set the stone, then fill the gaps by hand. I have also found that I can only go two courses high - maximum. Any higher and the weight starts to pop them off. Once they set 24 hours I can proceed higher.

I'm mixing in a bucket, because I'm so damn slow. I can set 8-10 stones at a time this way, before the mortar starts to stiffen.

At one point, I bought a ton of sand and several bags of Type S mortar, and tried to mix my own. I gave up and now my kids have a ton of sand to play in.

Tscarborough

If the mortar you are mixing gives you good adhesion, workability, and board life, then it is perfect for your application. The rest is just just banter on theory.

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stacker

tscar,i understand what you are saying.but we have one lumber yard in my hometown.and unless type s is special ordered they dont carry it.the nearest lowes is 70 miles away.so we have used this mix.
i did notice this morning they have a half pallet of type s there now.so someone has ordered it.

on a side note,im stuccoing a job now,and last year i got some advice from you on my mix.i am using what you told me on this job.so far i,knock on wood,i have very few cracks.and the ones i have seen,are where my mix was wetter and also i had to put a thicker brown coat on.
thanks for the great info.

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tkle

Lay a bed joint as you go. It will support the stone as you lay another one over it. As it sets tool it scrape it back and tool it again. A long wire brush works well for cleaning.

tkle

A cup of glue per batch is cheap insurance.

abm2958

I've read through all of this and found the topic of proper mortar mix ratios interesting. In the past I've done a few fake stone veneer jobs both inside and on exterior projects along with some repairs to natural full stone chimneys etc.

I've always just used the pre mixed type S mortar but always had problems with adhesion and making the mortar flow through a grout bag unless I mixed in about 2-3 scoops of hydrated lime (10 inch brick trowel) per bag mixed in a wheelbarrow. After doing this everything was much easier no matter what brand of mortar was used. I asked about it at the local masonry supply and they said that none of their mortar mixes have any lime in them and that although they do stock the hydrated lime very rarely does anyone buy it. So my question is how do you guys get proper adhesion and workability without using lime? Is it a function of using a richer mix with more mortar / portland than what the pre mixes contain?

Thanks.

tkle

I use Spec mix for phony stone. Parge the back, butter the sides and it will create a vacum as you push it into the wall or just put a trowelfull of mud on the back and stick it up there. As long as the wall is not too dry, the stuff sticks.

chan58

Well, at my glacial pace it took a year, but I eventually got the job done. Thanks to everyone for all the help - I REALLY appreciate it!

BEFORE:




AFTER:

dakzaag

Thanks for the follow up, I remember reading this in January and wondering how it all came out. Looks pretty good for a first timer.

Excellent discussion on different types of mortar and the different ways to adjust your mix for the different working conditions.

This is probably one of the best threads in the masonry section for basic masonry facts and practices.

Thanks Chan

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