Small Mason Con. Taken For A Ride

shane

First of all, I would like to say hello to u all. This site looks pritty cool. My Q. I bid a job in Manhattan that is 10 stroies high. I did not take into consideration any scaffolding and hope that it's a sep. price. I Sent in my bid already and I think, they think, Scaffold was included. (NO WAY) And I'm confused do I erect it as part of my masonry bid (Please say no) or is it someone eles job. I heard that who ever does the sidewalk Bridge usually does the scaffolding.
On a seprate note. Is $8 a block a normal price an is $12 a normal price for a SQFt of Brick. That what I was told by the G.C. I't just seems way to low. Can some one please help me with this. I was so excited about getting out on my own... Now, I don't know!

Thank you in advance....
Shane.

stacker

i dont know how they do business in manhattan but here in oklahoma,when we bid a job it is with all equipment to do the job.that includes any scaffolding needed or lifts or whatever.
you didnt say if the 8.00 a block was just labor or labor and material.if it is L/M it is WAY to cheap.if it is just labor it is too cheap for a 10 story job.12 bucks a sq ft for brick would be $1.60 per brick.for labor that would be a good price.if you have to buy the material(brick mortar,sand,ties)again too cheap.
in m/h/o i would get ahold of the g.c and withdraw my bid.this sounds like it is your first time contracting.if it is you have bitten off more than you can chew.i dont think your ready for this size of job.when you are just starting out losing your ass on one job can break you,and take for ever to dig out of.and if you screw up this job,word gets around among general contractors,and it will be hard to find more work.when i was working in wichita ks for a company,our company bid a school job,we werent the low bid.a new union company came in quite a bit lower.with in a month of starting the job the general called the company i was working for and asked if we could come help them out.our boss told them for $45.00 an hour per trowel and 30.00 an hour for each laborer.we had a crew of 10 masons and 8 laborers on the job the next day.in two weeks the union crew was run off the job.the owner went belly up 6 months later.my point is contracting on your own isnt always what its cracked up to be.

__________________
life is short,do your masonry naked!!
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Bob Kovacs

Why in God's name are you bidding 10-story projects in Manhattan if you haven't got a clue as to what to include, or what the costs should be??????????

Typically, if you're the only one who needs the scaffold, you're supplying it. If it has to be there for the drywall sub to put Densglass up in front of you, either he's got it or the GC does. In either case, you're bid should have been written to specifically identify whether you did or didn't include it- then there would be no question.

Regarding your pricing, they seem extremely low. In central NJ, the block on that job would be more like $18/SF, and the brick would be $36-40. In Manhattan, they'd be substantially more.

If I may ask, who's the GC that's lowballing you?

Bob

red_cedar

I agree, the contract should specify what is included and what is not.

tuckpointer

Sounds like this is way over your head. Not trying to be mean, it's just you asked some pretty simple questions. My advice, walk away before you regret it.

shane

Thx guys. I Have been here before(10/20 storie buildings) Just not as a sub. I have talked to quite a few people And my price is not as cheap as u think.
Everything does include labor and maybe $8 dollors is a little low. But I know this. You would not get anything more than $10 dollors a Block-(SqFt) and the highest price I saw for SqFt of brick was $16. By the way this job is all NON-UNION. If I got my price of $10 a block and $14 SqFt for brick and they supplied the scaffold, I think I would be Happy. Do you guys think that would be good enough. The crew is 2 bricklayers ( me and another ) and 2/4 labors. Time is 9 weeks by my schedule and 12 weeks by theirs and thats leaving myself two weeks extra. 16,000 block 2,000 SqFt of brick. Brick costs 65 cents and A block costs $1.10.
Thx
Shane

shane

Bob. Just because I don't know how the paper end (Pricing and details) of the job is just yet I can assure u, the rest is easy. If I can figure out the prices and what is and what should and should not be included I would be flying. Fed-Ex me a set of plans from your office and I'll sign anywhere for $10 a block. (CMU Only block) and $14 for brick (Price of brick cannot be more than 55cents). And as long as the Scaffold does not need an Engineer to sign of on it, I'll supply it and erect it.
THx, shane.

Mike Finley

A job in Manhattan? I'm suprised with all the logistical nighmares involved in working in Mahhattan it isn't $25 a block.

jvcstone

Hi Shane,

Haven't seen any mention at all about the various insurance certificates that need to be on file on commercial jobs. If you are a subcontractor, you most likely need general liability in the order of several million, workmans comp, and maybe even a performance bond. There is a big difference between laying brick and block as a per hour mason, or even being paid per unit, and actually being the subcontractor of record. You mentioned that you failed to consider the scaffolding and hope that the general will be providing that. What about the other things that go into a block wall-- rebar and grout cement for corners, jambs and bondbeams? what about the ladder reinforcing for the bed joints (every 2 -3 courses?) what about wall ties between the block and brick? Every job I ever contracted had to take into consideration all of those costs, and it has to be part of your per block bid.

If you are new to the contracting end of the business, be careful. There are a lot of GC's out there that love to chew up and spit out good craftsmen who don't have a clue as to what a job actually costs. And the only way to learn that is by paying tuition over the span of several years. Can your bank account support a bad bid on a multi-story structure???

Just my 2 cents

JVC

__________________
John VanCamp
www.jvcstoneworks.com

shane

Hello JVC, I really appreciated your sincere concern. I'v been making many subs rich for yrs and someone offered me a chance to go out alone. I have all the necessary doc. 2 Mil. lib. Workers comp is cheap (for me) (I have no pay roll). $2,000 after all is said and done. And theres no bond. This GC only does private work. All work includes rebar # 4/6 at 60cents a foot. All rebar cells filled from bottom to top. I have enough scaffold to do the front then the back. Its only 25 feet wide x 100 feet high = 3 frames wide by 17 frames high. It's the Q. that, Should I have put an extra dollor on the price for the scaffold?
If so, Would I bee taking the chance of loosing the job? I just don't want to over bit or under bid the job and look ridiculous.

Hears another thing. If anyone reading this does work in the new york area, B.Q.SI.Bx .city or Nassua, can you tell me realistically a simple break down of what a price is for a block (Filled or not and Size) and SqFt of brick.
THx again guys,
Shane.

shane

Your right Mike... U can thank the Mexicans for that, and all the Irish /Italian subs for teaching them...

Bob Kovacs

In an earlier post above, you mentioned that it was you and another mason, and 2-4 laborers- now you say you've got no payroll. Either I'm missing something, or there's something hokey going on here, and any prices I'd put out there would be worthless, since they're based on legitimate workers with WC premiums, etc.

Bob

PipeGuy

You go Shane You're already well on your way. Take the job and don't look back.
http://phattie.net/dawg_wavs/looney_tunes/bonvoyag.wav

stacker

bob,good point i caught the same thing.another thing i got was 16000 block/25x100.in 12 weeks.2 masons laying 5 days a week will have to avg 133.33 block a day a piece.that doesnt include laying any brick.if you cut that down to 9 weeks it bumps up the block count to 178.
2 labors will not be enough to allow the 2 masons to avg that many block a day.one laborer will need to be on the ground at all times.one on scaffold.you can figure a few days when you wont lay any block due to building scaffold and moving them.grouting stocking and such will also slow you down.
i wish you all the luck in the world because you are going to need it.i still hold true to my opinion of call the gc and withdrawing your bid.this is not the kind of job you want to start contracting on.in all reality it doesnt sound like that big of job,until you figure its 100 feet high!133 block count for a good mason isnt that high,and neither is 178.\another thing on the brick,your only looking at about 15000 brick(mods)if it is a straight run 2 masons can lay it up in a little over a week.but add corners,windows,doors or any other obstructions and your brick count goes down.

__________________
life is short,do your masonry naked!!
http://ok.local.yahoo.biz/knabemasonry/index.html

shane

BOB/ Stacker..... All Cash means no pay roll. Which means LOW workers Comp and less taxes. Thought you'd know that... All floors are pored concrete so the mixing of cement and other material are done floor by floor with the help of a small 5 ton chain hoist. I like your math on an average Mason. But, anyone who's a good mason whould have that number done by lunch time. So I'm not asking for advice on how to build bricks, blocks and how to play with Taxes. I was simply asking for good Advice( without the neg.) and any that was given, I thank you all.
Shane.

ruskent

oh god...

Eric K

What happens when one of your guys falls off the scaffolding and breaks a leg or neck? BIG Trouble with no WC. Just a thought.

Mike Finley

Doh! Now I see why it isn't $25.00 a block working in Manhattan.

stacker

i wasnt tring to tell you how to build or play with taxes.i was simple telling you my opinion of the situitation.now what yu do with the advice we have given is up to you.and i dont care what you say,you and your mason will have down time.if you and your mason arent getting product in the wall you might as well stand on top of your scaffold and throw your money into the wind.
thats been thought out too......he is fired before he hits the ground

__________________
life is short,do your masonry naked!!
http://ok.local.yahoo.biz/knabemasonry/index.html

Bob Kovacs

And you wanted me to Fedex you a set of plans for one of my projects? Yeah, OK. Sorry- we use legitimate contractors who have workers comp on all of their employees- not tax-avoiding wannabees that put their workers' lives at risk to pocket a few extra bucks.

Maybe you didn't come here looking for advice on paying taxes, etc., but you made the mistake of tossing out a little more information than you should have, and a few of us picked up on it. I don't know about the rest of the guys here, but I typically try to limit my efforts to helping "professionals" succeed- and your business practices aren't putting you into that category.

Bob