Questions About A No Good Chimney

Bruce

Some of you may have read most of this in my “Foundations” thread. I thought maybe I had better start a new thread because this is not specifically about foundations now. I have more questions to ask you masons.
To sum this up… I am trying to help some older folks who had a chimney built after a fire destroyed the original. Mason got part way done, got sick, quit the job… then the folks found out from NY Code inspectors... (This is Southwestern NY State…60 miles southwest of Buffalo)...that what the mason built cannot be used and has to be torn down.
These folks are trying to get their money back so they will have money to build a good chimney they can use. They don’t have much money, and the mason is trying to cover up by saying that they agreed to have done…everything that is wrong with the chimney. Thing is, they didn’t even know anything was wrong… until no mason would touch the job and the code inspector came and condemned it. They are trying to figure out more specifics about what sick mason did wrong, so they can try to get their money back. I am trying to help them, but frankly, don’t know much about masonry. I am a welder by trade.
Anyway, they gave that mason $3500 to start and just a few days before he got sick, he asked for another $3500 for materials. No materials are on site. He just brought what he thought he needed each day. They didn't understand anything about construction process at all. They trusted him. However, 2 weeks after he got sick, he called them up and told them that materials were going to be delivered that week. They called the company he ordered from… they said that the mason didn’t pay for the materials… that the order was a: Pay on Delivery!! [to the tune of over $1200! They canceled, of course, but … guess you can see what this guy is like.]
This is a brick and block exterior, 3 flue chimney. Oil furnace, fireplace, wood furnace.
The chimney is approx. 11 feet up now, it needed to go another 10. Won’t go anywhere now, as it is condemned.

Question: He used an exterior chimney sidewall as the same wall for the wood furnace chase. (In other words that exterior wall is doing double duty.) Is that supposed to be done?(That chase is 7-8 inches out of alignment from the wood furnace exhaust outlet... and ends up inside their basement poured foundation. There are no clay liners for 108" up. Code Inspectors do say that is wrong - but don't say where the liners are supposed to start?
Question: The oil furnace chase liners do not start for 14 inches up from the inlet from the oil furnace and there is a hole/jut to the right 4" inches deep, 1 1/2 ' high x 2’ long (looks to me like the side wall of that is part of the wall of the fireplace firebox.) Where are these clay liners supposed to start?
Question: What heat classifications (low/medium/or high heat) is the oil furnace, the fireplace, the wood furnace?

He says he put in a double wall... don't see how that is possible at all, since the chimney is only 23 3/4' deep.

I agree that the Code Inspectors should explain the wrongs… but... Anyway, I have written to the main Code people in Albany. First letter they said these folks needed to hire an architect or a registered builder. (They don't have that kind of money, as I said.) Wrote another letter a few days ago... no response yet.
Thanks guys. Any help will be appreciated.
Still trying to figure out how to get some pics on here.

stacker

the way i see it is that they should turn it over to a lawyer and let him handle it.also maybe criminal charges could be filed by the local DA,but that might be a stretch.
i wouldnt spend anymore money on this project without at least consulting a lawyer.

__________________
life is short,do your masonry naked!!
http://ok.local.yahoo.biz/knabemasonry/index.html

thom

The owners hired a guy who didnt' know what he was doing. What's so unusual about that? The guy most likely has spent the money and has none to return. What's so unusual about that?

It's a shame they got cheated. Did they hire a pro? Did they even talk to a pro? Probably they hired a handyman because he was cheap, or it was just easier to hire him than find a pro. Now they have a problem, but one that only they could have precluded.

Many of us, probably all of us who have been in the construction business for a while, have run into this same situation several times. In the end there is probably no justice. The customer is screwed. They'll have to take it on the chin and continue on.

The responsible contractor didn't get the job. He was either to expensive or the owner just didn't want to bother looking him up.

Even after running into a problem, did they go to a mason? No, they went to a welder for help. Clearly you don't know the answers either. And so their problems continue. Maybe, at some point, they will hire a professional.

An old Jewish man once told me "You don't always get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get."

And finally, the way I see it, you're not doing them any favors either by getting involved. Tell them to hire a pro.

Brickie

Ask your so called code inspectors to show you what the code exactly requires. If they claim it's wrong & not up to code then they should have no problem coughing up a copy of the codes they are citing.

__________________
“Ron Paul is one of the outstanding leaders fighting for a stronger national defense. As a former Air Force officer, he knows well the needs of our armed forces, and he always puts them first. We need to keep him fighting for our country.” – Ronald Reagan

bruno002

allot of inspectors are dicks like that, they love giving everyone a hard time

Brickie

Yeah, some are especially the new guys on the beat. It pays to know the code. I had one FNG inspector that didn't know wtf he was talking about. Tried shutting the job down. I told him he better call his office & check his "facts" wth his boss. He did & much to his surprise he found out the hard way that he was soooo freak'nnnn wronggggg!!! !

__________________
“Ron Paul is one of the outstanding leaders fighting for a stronger national defense. As a former Air Force officer, he knows well the needs of our armed forces, and he always puts them first. We need to keep him fighting for our country.” – Ronald Reagan

hurricane hogan

Bruce
Sad story, the kind of thing that makes us all look bad and makes it hard for people to trust contractors. What a couple of guys said - get a pro, someone recomeended by a reputable source. I'm on the other coast but if I were called I would be glad to stop by a job like this and give an opinion, would take 15 minutes, no charge. I know it all comes back in time. Some guys would want to be paid a service call which is fair also. Get a pro on site, asap. That will answer your questions.
Then, the folks probably need to get a lawyer. Just remember to wash your hands afterwards. In most areas I have ever worked it becomes a civil case if ANY work at all was done and too late for criminal charges, but be sure and check.

Sorry to hear, good luck.

Bruce

I read your posts, and thank you for them.

Besides being previous clients… am more connected to them because their son has worked with me on the boats at the Portsmouth yard and the BG& E tower –Baltimore. Anyway… I now live close to them… and they asked for my help. So I am trying.
They did ask a contractor for the name of a mason he trusted. That is how they got the mason’s name. Contractor told them he did nice work. This mason has been at it for 30 years. He has plenty of money.
Two homes, etc.

Granted, he does a “pretty job” on the outside… but it is the inside where things go wrong. After the original mason got sick … They did call a number of other qualified masons to come and assess the job… but… when they did… the other masons would not work on the chimney… said it was not up to code and had major problems. This is when the Code Inspectors got more involved.. and condemned it completely.
The problems build because no mason wants to get involved, meaning… give any written assessment of the job… because this is likely to go to court.
I can see their point… but… doesn't help out the folks at all... and allows the original mason to skip and smile right to the bank.

They have hired an attorney… but the attorney needs more information. Code people should give that info, but… in this area, the code inspectors are part timers… and really don’t know that much about masonry either. And are not bonded. (not good)

What the code inspector did was to write a letter and just site every chapter that applied to masonry (chimneys and fireplaces)… but that is not good enough… has to be more specific. Thus the reason for contacting the NY State Code division directly… but still waiting for their answers.

This is why I am trying to help. I have read the code… taken pictures, but… need some more info… like the questions I have asked here… so I can help them link the pictures to the code infractions.
I am pretty sure what happened is the original mason… knowing he was going to retire… just decided to slap up any old thing, make the outside look ok, get easy money… and off … and hope he got away with it. His downfall was that he had a stroke in the middle… and now all is exposed. But it doesn’t matter what is exposed if everybody is so afraid of going to court that nobody will specifically tell what is wrong.
Anyway… thanks for your comments,
Bruce

Brickie

Bruce,

So the goof's posing as Code Ispectors condemned it yet didn't give you anything specific so it can be brought into compliance with the codes??? Why aren't they bonded??? Why the long delay with the
NY State Code division??? It doesn't make any sense for something this simple.

Masonry fireplace and chimney construction is regulated by the building code. The several "model codes" used in the United States (BOCA, NFPA, UBC and SBCCI) have all being merged into one new International Building Code (IBC) and it's residential counterpart, the International Residential Code (IRC). Here's where you go for the code info:

http://www.rumford.com/code/code.html


Here's the skinny on how to build it the right way:

http://www.rumford.com/code/IRC03.html


Good luck,

Mike

__________________
“Ron Paul is one of the outstanding leaders fighting for a stronger national defense. As a former Air Force officer, he knows well the needs of our armed forces, and he always puts them first. We need to keep him fighting for our country.” – Ronald Reagan

Bruce

Thanks Mike... I appreciate the info.
If you know the answers to those questions I asked... really would appreciate that too.
I agree with you about the code inspectors. Tomorrow going to contact Albany again... Funny how they aren't shy about gathering up taxes... but they duck and hide when they need to put forth.
Bruce

Brickie

Your welcome, glad I can help. The answers to your questions are here:

http://www.rumford.com/code/IRC06.html

Check out the sectional sideviews.

Mike

__________________
“Ron Paul is one of the outstanding leaders fighting for a stronger national defense. As a former Air Force officer, he knows well the needs of our armed forces, and he always puts them first. We need to keep him fighting for our country.” – Ronald Reagan

thom

Then be prepared to spend a day in depositions and a couple days testifying or waiting to testify when you are suppoened (sp?) No pay, but if you don't cooperate you go to jail.

I've been there, on a few occasions. Remember the old saw, no good deed goes unpunished.

Anything you say to the homeowner can be used against you. You have held yourself out to be the expert by giving advice. You will be expected to testify about what is there, why it is not finished, what is wrong with it, the list never ends. Our legal system has made damn sure there is no upside to helping out in these situations. There is a huge downside. They may be your friends, but I bet you aren't their lawyer's friend and he will call the shots.