Question For Fellow Masons

Tommy C

I will also post this in the Business section, but it is also a question that pertains to masons, as this is the trade that I am most familiar with by far.

I've been a mason for years, but always worked for somebody (family business). I am considering going on my own soon. Here's my question:

Do you guys use square footage prices when giving a homeowner an estimate? That is what my mentors (uncles, cousins) have always done, and no other way. They are very successful.

I am now reading a good book on markup, profits, and running a construction company. Although I now UNDERSTAND the fundamentals of markup, I am EXTREMELY confused as to how it plays into the estimating process.

For example, if a customer wants a price on a driveway in pavers, I would punch into the calculator the square footage of the driveway, and multiply it by my price per square foot for pavers. Easy right? Well that's how I was taught to estimate. Then I read this book.....

Quite frankly it confuses the bejesus outta me! How do you other masons figure jobs? Do you use markup?

Thanks in advance for the input!

-TC

JustaFramer

craftsman-book.com They have a wide variety of estimating guides.

Glasshousebltr

MOM LiPS

Material+Overhead+Markup+Labor+Profit=Success

That's right, I make this crap up.

Bob

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Bob

Tommy C

So would I essentially use a square footage price that works for me...and THEN apply a markup figure that works for me? And how about overhead?

Just trying to fully grasp the concepts in the book I'm reading now.

Zero Punch

Materials+ Labor+Overhead=Cost
Cost+Profit=Selling Price
Markup = % difference between Cost and Selling Price

You can use a square foot pricing if you have included all the above. But remember all jobs are not the same if you do small job, some costs will be higher, overhead generally, while on a big job it will be a smaller % of overall costs. I once worked for a contractor who used the actual costs for labor and materials but used the same % for overhead for all jobs, really screwed up the P&L job sheets. Made little jobs look like they were money makers and the larger jobs just so so. When I pointed this out to him he said it didn't matter, at the end of the year this % was his average overhead.

6stringmason

I do nothing but masonry and all my jobs are bid per sq foot. I've been in business for a couple years now and have not lost money yet. Knock on wood.
On smaller jobs that only take the better part of a day I add a little extra for set up time. Good luck with your business.

jvcstone

Large jobs square foot pricing that includes material, labor, and expected profit. Your wage is part of the labor cost, not the expected profit.

Small jobs --concider the sq ft cost, but as mentioned, your set up and tear down time is the same wether a job takes a month or a day, so I usually figure how many days (or part days) the job will take, and multiply that by how much needs to come in per day to make the expected profit.

Things like columns, piers, quoined corners, high walls needing several decks of scaffolding all need to be put into the equation on top of the sq ft price, as they take up your time--which is in effect the only commodity you have to sell.
JVC

__________________
John VanCamp
www.jvcstoneworks.com

Tommy C

Zero Punch,
So would it be correct to come up with the square footage cost of a certain job (which would include materials and labor), then ADD a percentage of your annual overhead, then ADD a percentage for what profit you want to make (say 8%). And still my question arises, when does your MARKUP figure, once you establish it, come into the equation?

6string,
So are you saying you don't use overhead and markup figures? Because I believe that's how my family has done it. According to the books I'm reading, that's wrong! Yikes!

6stringmason

No I dont as I dont buy the material. Every job I do the GC picks out and pays for the material to be used. The only thing I charge for is labor. So far it has worked out. Once I start doing jobs where I supply materials and such I would think about markup and overhead, but right now I have no need to. I dont know if I ever will because I dont really want to get THAT big. I like being small. Me, another mason and a tender. My goal is to have maybe one more of each and I would be more than happy.

two kids

Hey guys been awhile since I posted

You guys are going about the pricing thing all wrong, if you r pricing by the sq/ft , you are costing yourselves an average of 25-50$ a day...WHY? I have tried them all but the simpliest and most profittable is per brick, NO WAY TO LOSE, also here our brick come bundled by the thousand, and when I start a job I simply count the brick on site and as they disappear I get paid for them, which means I also get paid to make simple cuts , because not all brick in the cube can be used , yet , we here still get paid for them , i.e. the handling of them , having to throw them off the scaffold , pick them up and etc.etc..,

I also get paid for any extras I do ....arch windows,soldiers, rollocks, vents, steps, quoins, garage doors,etc.etc...

Now for the small , 1 day Jobs, my pricing is as follows, if it is a project that is more than a days pay ( 2 columns for example =$800) then I give them that price, if not I will simply charge for a days pay for my 3 man crew = $700

Yes I keep a small crew , so that I can keep my quality highly controlled, I have laid in the neighborhood of few hundred thousand brick of 20 different kinds, and I have never had to use a cleaner of any kind, noe have ever frozen on me, and I have NEVER had to go back and touch up any of my Jobs, My small crew hasnt been out of work in the 11 years that I have been is buisness. We do restaraunts, houses, carwashes, custom as well as spec homes, and no matter what price we have no problems booking out a 3 months in advance ( I wont book out any farther do to too many variables)

The system of pricing I described is a very profittable one, as a small crew, I lay about on average 1400 brick a day, with a profit of = 5-600 after expenses, and there is no way to lose, even if a person miscalculates the estimate amount of brick, he can just order more and still, by the per unit pricing there is no way to get locked into a lump sum or turn key price.

IT REALLY IS AN EXCELLENT SYSTEM.....all the masons here in N.E. Tenn. use it.

SORRY SO LONG , LIKE I SAID HADNT POSTED IN AWHILE AND I HAD A LOT TO SAY

__________________
AS A PASTOR AND A MASON I GET TO LAY FOUNDATIONS THAT LAST THE TEST OF TIME....BUT ONLY IF DONE RIGHT


TWO KIDS MASONRY....KINGSPORT TN
EMAIL ME AT - brickmason29@charter.net

lukachuki

Good informative post,

Tim

Rex Mann

Pricing pavers by the square foot is not the way it should be done. An easy example. Two patios, each 1000 square feet. first is 50' X 20' and rectangular. The next patio is also 1000 sf, however, it has all curved edges.

Cutting is the most expensive task my company does. More cuts add up to more waste too. Which patio will take you longer to complete.
The curved one will take longer. Longer to remove the soil, longer to screed sand, longer to cut it in, longer to lay the pavers and longer to put in you aggregate base.

Different tasks take different times. Experiance, equipment used, site conditions, weather, and number of workers will also effect task times.

Peace,

Rex

DecksEtc

A similar concept applies to my pricing schedule for decks. For example, I have a square foot price for decks under 4' in height, another price for higher than 4' and a different price again for curves and other features.

Not sure if that helps but I thought I'd throw in my $0.02.

stacker

i charge by the brick which includes batts,and cuts.if i get two cuts out of one brick,thats double the per brick price.two batts same thing.thats why sometimes you get paid for more brick than was ordered.