Pavers Over Concrete - My Cousin's Method

Tommy C

Tscarborough, it actually took me half the time to do the jobs in this manner. A 300 s.f. patio took me 2 days to do. Sales price $8,025 (including markup). $2,600 in materials, labor, and other costs. That comes out to $5,425 profit ($2,712.50 per day). Doing the same job in the traditional method takes me and my crew about 4 days.

The profit margin was significantly higher, and it was a breeze to do. Furthermore, it came out gorgeous, and I can't find a reason why this job won't last.

Tscarborough

Me and 3 people can do a 300 SqFt in less than a full day, for less than 1500 material and labor. My price would be around 4500 bucks, giving me a GPM of 77% VS yours of 32%. Whose customer is better served?

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Vinny

Well, I may stand corrected. But I guess what we are saying is its possibly overkill at least for a patio.

In the end though I guess if it works for you, or your cousin, go with it.

Dont forget though Tom, You asked for opinions. So, opinions you want, opinions you got

Alright, off subject for a second. I know why I have time to mess around on CT in the middle of the day. I'm at buisness planning in Philly and I got a moment to blog. What are you doing at the office instead of out there making money

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neolitic

I am wiselybudgeting my time so that I will probably finish up this job take off around 11pm
Since this thread won't die.
I've done some patios and walks, just using a sand base over Septic field fabric. Pretty much what I saw others doing when I was a pup, before I researched methods.
Can you explain what the flaws are in that ointment?

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Vinny

T, the pavers are like $3.50 - $4.00 PER SQ FT. to start with so thats 1200 dollars+/-. How can you do it at $1500.00?

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Tscarborough

I guess because I only pay $1.85 per SqFt.

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Tommy C

T - a few questions. First, you would complete a 300 s.f. paver patio in one day...including excavation? You workin' from 5 am to 7 pm?

Also, you are in the Lone Star State, I am in NJ. Significant difference, cost wise.

And, I don't know what you pay your guys, and what your costs of doing business are.

That aside...on a level playing field (i.e., if I was in Texas, and so were you), and I charged $8k and you charged $4,500...of course your customer is better served. But if I was in Texas, I probably wouldn't be able to charge $8k. Don't forget, where I am, things are a bit pricier. Example - you can't find a house worth living in for less than $400k, and that comes with a minimum of $8,000 a year in taxes. I have friends in Texas who have bought larger homes, for half the price. In terms of price, we're comparing apples and oranges. There's plenty of guys where I am that would charge over $10,000 for this same 300 s.f. patio.

But....if you can complete a 300 s.f. paver job, with excavation, in LESS than one 8 hour day...then god bless you my friend. Maybe I'm just slow...gee, and I thought we were faster in the Northeast.

Vinny

Geeeeeze, I'm getting hosed!!!!!!!!

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Tscarborough

But the prices don't matter. What matters is the GPM. That would hold, no matter where or at what price.

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Vinny

We are Tom, we are

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The Right Way Driveway Company
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Tommy C

Yes, I am paying almost $4 per square foot just for the pavers.

You are right T, it doesn't matter...all that matters is the GPM. But....you are comparing MY business to YOUR business. We need to compare MY business to MY business, using the 2 different methods. Which method gives MY BUSINESS a higher GPM? Answer: the concrete method. Hence the reason why I'm up all night trying to find a significant problem with the method. Does this make sense?

By the way, I'm still baffled by how you can demo, and install a 300 s.f. patio in less than 8 hours. You guys mustbe drinking gallons of coffee? Hopefully not something illegal? Haha, only kidding!

Tommy C

Vinny - good question! I actually travel a lot on business (I'm involved in multiple lines of work, aside from masonry), and I'm in the airport now on my laptop. I guess I'm trying to be a Renaissance Man, but it's taking it's toll. But I have to admit, I've gotten sort of addicted to this board recently!

Vinny

Too bad your headed out. I was going to say meet me at Ginos for a cheese steak

Where are you headed? I hope to the Keys to meet some big haired blond and a full tube of sun lotion

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concretemasonry

Tommy -

You can think all you want and install the pavers any way you wish, but I am obligated to let others know that you proposed method is not correct and is not suggested by manufacturers and other familiar with the paving industry.

The sand setting bed is intended so the pavers can provide the a strong, stable and durable surface.

Your proposed system is bad for all the reasons listed previously and one you have not thought about.

You have essentially created the conditions designed that are used in a laboratory to test concrete products to failure and determine the freeze/thaw resistance.

In this test, units are put in a shallow pan of water (distilled or saline/salt) so the bottom can asborb the moisture and then the sample is frozen and thawed. After a number of cycles, the pavers are weighed (to measure loss) and then put back in the water for more absorption, freezing and thawing and weighing. When the loss of weight reaches a determined amount, the pavers are classified as failed. This is done in a laboratory with the pavers sitting in a metal pan. The method of testing was developed because it provides harsh conditions to cause a failure in the shortest time in order to provide a prompt measure of durability.

As you can see, you have done this in an outside location. While you may think the water eventually drains away, but in reality most is available for absorption due to incomplete draing or the drainage paths obstructed by adhesive and the frozen soil around the patio. In a real paver installation, the granular subgrade also provides drainage downward below 100% of the installation.

Your location may not be as cold as others, but you could actually have more cycles per year because of daily temperature swings. In some cold climates you can get fewer damaging cycles with moisture per year than other areas.

Concrete under a concrete paver is not recommended unless there is a sophiticated drainage sytem designed by a professional. - In short for a sidewalk, patio or driveway, it is a waste of time and money and creates problems down the road.

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Dick

Engineer, designer and consultant recently active domestically and internationally on construction and design in about 35 countries.

Tscarborough

That is true, Tommy, about comparing it inside your business.

This is what you do not have to do: frame and pour concrete or wreck the forms, or wait for the concrete to set. You can proceed directly with laying pavers upon compaction of the base and screeding of the sand bed. The excavation and base are the same either way, as are the pavers.

In addition, you do not require the tools to do framing and concrete.

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Vinny

Dick, The more I think about this, the more I feel the subject is somewhat moot.

I mean, all types of stone and masonry products are used as walks and driveway surfaces, and are set on concrete slabs by installers that arent exactly MIT engineers. They put downa little stone or processed stone, and install away.

I would think one of the critical factors is slab design as well as drainage yet when i see some very old concrete whatevers on some properties there was very little thought given to drainage and they continue to last. So this leads me to believe, at least in some cases, the strength of the concrete mix and the installers skills are high on the priority list.

I dont pretend to be an expert, thats for sure. But walks, drives, patios are not life critical.

Anyway, thats IMHO

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neolitic

Thank you for the complete explanation. I just e-mailed it to my partner.
Couple of months ago we had a really big argument over this.
In this situation we needed a slab to divert water from an already damp basement.
He and the HO wanted to use pavers on top of the slab, and aside from elevation/ drainage problems all I could give them was my gut that it was a bad deal from the freeze thaw stand point.
Your explainer might put it to rest.
(I won the argument--it's an exposed agg slab--but it was purely because I am the most bull-headed)
Thanks again, but about the sand?

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Tommy C

Vinny, I'm in Orlando actually, waiting to head home...cheesesteak sounds good tho!

Dick, interesting regarding the tests that they put these pavers through. So basically, after many many freeze thaw cycles, a wet paver will actually break down? But isnt the top half of a paver, no matter how it's installed, exposed to the same moisture conditions?

Vinny

Oh, your coming back from meeting the big hair blond

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The Right Way Driveway Company
If you say you cant, your a loser. If you say you wont, your a quiter. Which one do you want to be?

Tommy C

Vinny, ha! I wish...lots of work, no sleep, and now stranded in an airport. You're not a UConn fan are you? I'm still seething over the the crushing that they gave to my Scarlet Knights!