Limestone and ICF questions - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

OLEMIN · 09-05-2009, 01:38 AM

I've recently have been spoken to about a decent sized residential project that has ICF. Along with it the owner wants to utilize Limestone 36"x16".

Stone and materials will be provided by the owner.

The question is I'm having a hard time coming up with a price per SF for the limestone on ICF.

Has anyone had experience with Limestone on ICF that could possibly steer me in the right direction price wise.

I've worked with ICF before but with brick veneer. Keep in mind this is a residential house. I'd greatly appreciate it guys.

EDIT: All I need to do is give a price per SF for labor only, Midwest/south region and non union.

dakzaag · 09-05-2009, 04:37 PM

Maybe you could define your limestone a little more clearly, I personally have not seen 36" X 16" limestone except for caps. But I could be considered a hermit.

Rockmonster · 09-05-2009, 05:35 PM

Where is midwest/south? OK....TX....AR??? You are more in tune with how much you can get in, what the going rate is, etc. for your job than any of us...I personally, am wondering how you flash that with the ICFs. I have never worked with them, although I think that AAC and ICFs are going to grow in popularity, so I want to learn a little bit about them. gl Anybody have a flashing detail for this stuff??

OLEMIN · 09-05-2009, 05:54 PM

I do believe ICF is going to become mainstream as time goes by maybe even sooner. I've worked with ICF before it was about 3 years ago however i wasnt on the project my father was running that one. It did in fact had to be flashed and I plan on using the same crew that worked in that project forthis up and coming one. The stone that I'm talking about is Indiana limestone. It measures 36x16x 3 1/2". I was told it's not charged as much as a regular stone because it's layed as a block and takes up 4 sq ft. I'm not sure to charge by the square foot or charge by the piece. It still needs to be belved around the edge with a grinder so I have to take into account the process of belving with a grinder. The total is roughly 11,000 SF that needs to be layed.

The stone is called Vanderbilt and Berkshire.

I'm out in KY. So my prices vary from Midwest to South depending on the area of the state.

NJ Brickie · 09-05-2009, 07:24 PM

Rock, I have flashing details for window and door openings but not for the brick shelf. If you are interested I can try to figure out how to post them.

tgeb · 09-05-2009, 07:40 PM

Quote:

The stone that I'm talking about is Indiana limestone. It measures 36x16x 3 1/2". I was told it's not charged as much as a regular stone because it's layed as a block and takes up 4 sq ft.

Why so thick? 3 1/2" ??

Who ever said it should be cheaper is not thinking it through. How difficult will it be to get the next stone on plane with the others, if the wall is out even a tiny bit?

This building has limestone of only about 1 1/2" thick. these pieces are about 6' X 3' if I remember correctly. And is a couple hundred feet tall.

Tscarborough · 09-05-2009, 10:27 PM

That is a different and much more expensive system, tgeb. 3-1/2 is a standard veneer thickness, and the attachment and flashing is almost exactly the same as it would be for brick.

Rockmonster · 09-05-2009, 11:14 PM

Wondering how to flash with the form though...is there a reglet let in or some other method....and is there then a membrane over the forms and flashing?? Just haven't seen it....

dakzaag · 09-06-2009, 07:27 AM

I'm sorry, OLEMIN but your not a contractor, it appears you are just looking for a cheap figure to beat your mason up with. Those pieces are at least 150 pounds a piece. 12,000 ft/sq is a big house or small office.

It will take two men and a horse to lay those pieces all day long. This is a time and materials type job and your mason is wise not to give you a firm price as there could easily be a limit of how many can be stacked in a day before they have to set up. Why would flashing be any different on ICF's than anything else?

As the old saying goes...

"tree fiddy" sounds about right.

NJ Brickie · 09-06-2009, 07:32 AM

Rock try these

http://www.rewardwalls.com/documents...e/PDF/6-08.pdf

http://www.rewardwalls.com/documents...s/PDF/9-11.pdf

Rockmonster · 09-06-2009, 11:03 AM

Why the confrontational attitude dakzaag...? I find an OLE Masonry Inc. in Shelbyville KY....you know something I don't? I for one don't think HO's or generals have to come to CT to see if their getting a fair price. Unless they live in a vacuum, they should be able to figure that out where they work...I just take this as a guy that is wondering how many he could expect to lay in a day, or some other help with pricing. I personally would not have a problem giving a hard number on a job like this, as many people want to know what the hell the job is going to cost. Maybe I'm just a gullible chump

How big is your crew OLE?

OLEMIN · 09-06-2009, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockmonster

Why the confrontational attitude dakzaag...? I find an OLE Masonry Inc. in Shelbyville KY....you know something I don't? I for one don't think HO's or generals have to come to CT to see if their getting a fair price. Unless they live in a vacuum, they should be able to figure that out where they work...I just take this as a guy that is wondering how many he could expect to lay in a day, or some other help with pricing. I personally would not have a problem giving a hard number on a job like this, as many people want to know what the hell the job is going to cost. Maybe I'm just a gullible chump

How big is your crew OLE?

The thing is I'm trying to figure out how many pieces My crew can lay in a day.

I have 3 crews and each crew has 5 guys each. I've given out a single price for the job. My competitor was charging HALF the price I was. However, the owner of the project went with my company because I came off as very professional. The other competitor didn't seem to have insurance or any experience with ICF. And I know this because they were out measuring the SF on the house while I was there too. I was told they were desperately looking for work low balling anything that came across them.

I plan to use the same crew that worked with the ICF 3 years ago. I want see how many pieces they lay in a day. If need be add on another crew and so forth after that.

So I'm really taking a risk right now, I figure if I put 5 masons and 3 beveling and 2 laborers I could get this job done and still make a good profit.

dakzaag · 09-06-2009, 01:02 PM

So bid the job and see what happens.

How the heck are we supposed to know what his operating costs are, let alone what his profit goals are. That size stone is going to have a unique set of headaces. I can't recall seeing anything like that on a building.
We have a ton of buildings with bedford stone on them, but nothing cut 36" X 16" X 3.5".

The words "residential, non union, and south" could be also stated, the cheapest rate possible. IF your selling your services, you would use terms like "custom stone work, detailed edging, $$$" things like that. And adjust a base labor rate accordingly.

This guy has a second post asking how to bid a job. Not gonna happen on CT just look around.

Personally I think he is GC'ing his own McMansion and found some stone from a quarry that he can have for hauling it away and now is looking for a poor mason who is desperate for work to lay it at the same price as 8" block.

Maybe try Craigs List, I'm sure someone there will help price the project.

Tscarborough · 09-06-2009, 01:46 PM

In my humble opinion, anyone that asks for pricing help is in over their head. That may not be a bad thing in and of itself, but asking it on an international board is not going to provide any help at all. When in doubt, cover your ass and sell your company, not the price. That way you always win.

4th generation · 09-06-2009, 02:00 PM

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, no offence, but 3 crews & you need help pricing??

OLEMIN · 09-06-2009, 04:02 PM

Ok I'm not a low ball contractor. I have 3 crews, AGC insurance, and the ability to bond large projects. The whole non union thing, that's another story considering the region I'm in my prices for aren't cheap as it is and only being in a union would definitely put me out of work. I go by word of mouth and recommendations. That's why I was called by the owner because they recieved word in the area that I'd be the most able to handle a project like this. Yet this project was thrown ate with the provided specs so I've had to sit down On this with some headaches and build a complete plan, which I'm still doing, as to what and how I'm going to start and finish this. I've presented to the owner what all I've has plan and has chosen to go with me instead of my competitor, who was low balling me by more than half. I was merely trying to see if anyone out there has ran into something similiar and to see how they went about it.

Sometime this week I'll have to lay a sample of the stone. From here I can figure out what I'll be able to work with.

Tscarborough · 09-06-2009, 04:37 PM

That is the best way (building a sample wall). If you need ideas on HOW to do it, I am sure you will get plenty help, but asking how much to charge is kind of a red flag and pointless.

artisanstone · 09-07-2009, 05:25 AM

I think they will weigh a lot more than 150#. I've got 210# at 140/cu.ft. This really takes them beyond a 2 man stone IMO. I think you're looking at some kind of hoist or crane.