Irregular Tenn Crab Production Rates..

ruskent

I am designing a job where the client would like around 700 sq feet of wet layed irregular tennennesse crab flagstone. I have never wet layed irregular stone before.

A few weeks ago my 2 guys laid and jointed around 80-90 sq feet of dimensional bluestone per a day. What type of production rates can i plan on for irregular stone?

Any tips?

lukachuki

What do you mean by wet layed?

Production rates depend on how tight the customer wants the joint. Dimensional stone is by far the fastest. You can go from whopping big joints which go pretty fast (still a little slower than dimensional) to custom cutting almost every stone to get a real tight look. Cutting every stone is SLOW....but we have learned a few tricks to speed it up.

Here are some examples of tight joints.







And here are some examples of (ugly) big whoppin joints (some people really like though) softset. With a little imagination you can imagine them hardset with mortar instead of sand.

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roofwiz74

those first few looked great.

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ruskent

We are going to shoot for around 1 inch joints. What are the tips you have to speed up the process?

stacker

i dont think there are any tips to "speed up" the process.i would take my time and make sure you do as good as you can.i would lay out a few stones and make them fit,then lay them in mortar and then move to the next section.but i would make sure i dry fit them first.i think that is your key to doing a good and half fast job.

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Driftwood

over 1200 sq. ft. of new slab ,we poured. 200 sq. ft. over existing slab. 1/2" to 3/4"joints. cutting with 4 1/2"diamond blades in grinders. use water or You'll cook the blades FAST. Actual thickness is 1/2" to 1 1/4" I'm guessing. Paying $425 per ton in N.Calif. stone from penn.,I think .complete materials and labor around $66,700. I'm on another job, I'm guessing They're laying about 40 sq.ft per day per man. We don't do Masonry that much. Guy that does a lot of it ,told Me ,His guys do about 60 Sq Ft. a day of random blue stone. My est. book says $32 per ft. flag and another $10 a foot for slab. NOW how's that for helping a brother?
Let's do more of this sharing ,guys ,We're all just trying to make a living! Good luck

ruskent

I just got another customer to upgrade their job from dry lay dimensional to wet lay irregular. I am getting a good rate, but not top dollar. I just know i need to get one under my belt before i call myself a mason!

This is a project i am very excited about. All masonry. 2 pillars, fire pit, and patio/walk.

I am trying to just do high end jobs on million dollar plus houses. I am tired of getting undercut on pavers. I need to be able to do what the hacks can not do. There maybe be 200 companies atleast in my county that can lay concrete pavers good (not great) . There are very few companies that can do good stone work. Yet there are alot of people that want it, once they see it.

lukachuki

Are you putting them on concrete or soft setting them? I'll assume you are hardsetting them in my little tips below although some of the things apply to both.

I agree with stacker above. Go slow to begin with and lay them out dry first, when you get 3 or 4 that fit then mortar them in. It will take awhile to kind of get a feel for the whole thing but pretty soon you (or whoever you hire) will start to see stones that will at least have one edge that will come close to working. A couple of days into it you will get much faster.

Here are my tips and I'm not a professional by any means but this is what has helped me.

1. You will have to facecut a lot of the stones to get a proper fit. We use a 7" masonry blade on a small angle grinder which by the way is about the handiest tool we possess. If the grinder is to big then weight becomes an issue plus the bigger motors create lots more kickback thus are more dangerous. We use chalk commonly used for welding to mark or sometimes a sharpie. With a sharpie you have to be careful to cut out all the marking.

2. After dry laying 3 or 4 stones scribe the outline of the stones on your concrete or whatever subase you are putting them on before pulling them up for mortar. This outline will give you the exact spot to put your mortar which will keep everything much cleaner and allow you to dry lay out the next 3 or 4 without mortar contamination on the new stones. Be sure that you put plenty of mortar under the stone big voids are a no no. To much mortar also makes things difficult as the stones float...meaning as you adjust one stone the excess mortar floats or moves the stones next to it.

3. This is the biggest tip IMHO. Use paper templates for the really tough shapes. We usually have a roll of paper that we use for making templates with us on each of these type of jobs. It is much quicker to whip out a paper template and scribe a stone and facecut it from this template than it is to stick bunches of possible stones in the void and still have failure to span the whole void. I have gotten good at doing it pretty much with out using an y markings at all...meaning i take my piece of paper and firmly push down all the edges around the void. This makes the basic outline as the paper is slightly creased. I then cut out the template with a Good scissors allowing for the 1" joint as I cut. Once you have the template in hand you stick it on a couple of likely candidates until you find one that won't waste to much cut it and you have a perfect stone and a perfect fit assuming you did everything correctly.

3.5 Depending on how many guys you have doing this give each guy a small part of the whole process instead of 2 or 3 guys doing everything from hauling stone to final mortaring. It is much easier to get fast at 1 or 2 of these steps than the whole thing and we have found that it is much more efficient. We usually have one guy doing the grunt work, one guy making the templates and facecutting the specialty stones and the main guy putting it all together as well cutting and laying the stones that just need minor modification. (you will need more than one masonry side grinder) The last guy is usually me as I'm responsible for the final product.

4. When it gets old (and it does) and you feel like you are not making any progress and you are discouraged just "keep chopping wood" if you keep moving you will see the light at the end of the tunnel.

5. Bid Plenty there's nothing worse than doing this slow meticulous work knowing that at a certain point you are starting to lose money. We charge $30.00 ft2 + for the really tight stuff.

6. The biggest problem we have is getting the mortar to bond with the stones. JVC here on this forum says that he has had good success using a bonding agent on each stone which I'm going to try next time. I should also note that we go back and bag the joint after everything has set up we don't do it as we lay.

I'm sure there is more but my fingers are starting to get confused.

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Less with the jaw more with the paw!

lukachuki

Good advice! I wish we had jobs of that size around here. We use the bigger 7" blades as they don't burn up nearly as quick...or so it seems.

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Less with the jaw more with the paw!

ruskent

Wow thanks for the advice. I figure i will do the lay the peices out and make the cuts. I 'll have one guy mix the mortar, carry stones, etc, and my mian guy will just lay. I am sure we will do fine on this job. I have a great group of guys and everything we do comes out great. We know what thinks should look like when they are finshed. No matter how long it takes, we make sure we get that look.

I know this is what i need to learn how to do if i want to take my company in the direction i am heading.

tkle

The biggest bonding problems come from larger stones being tipped as they're laid.When it's stepped on it breaks loose.Tuck around the edges as you go,fill voids while the base is still wet.Make sure the bottom of the stone is clean.Sometimes just a wet sponge across the bottom is all you need for bond.A little thinset or even a little neat cement works better.Keep it about an inch from the edge so you can grab it without getting your fingers dirty.

Driftwood

Your work is GREAT! I'll take pix when work is complete. My whole project is around $130,000. It includes about 100 lin. ft. of versa-lok wall , deck, spa,
Nat gas fire pit, Nat ,gas barbacue. 17 'trampoline. They supply Spa, fire ring,
trampoline. Landscape cont. does add. work. On My 1 st v-loc wall I charged $33 sq. ft. COST around $20 materials. Just did 2 more in S.F. $80 sq. ft.
This includes excavation,wall , gravel 12" to near top, filter fab. 4" schedule 35 perf. People keep stopping buy with compliments. The split face cobble look goes with this city. Have more to bid. This is a place where people have money. I know I couldn't get this in My old home state, Mass. Lets share the doller amounts. Ain't gonna hurt this old Man [ 64] Might inspire a young guy with a family to go for more $$$$$. Wish I had Me around 35 years ago!
Be well brothers, and thrive.

jvcstone

Worked on a granite boulder veneer job once where 1/4 inch was the joint target. We would keep a length of romex handy and use that to bend the shape we needed for the next stone. Never thought to use it on crazy work, but I suspect it would be pretty efficient there too. I started using the bonding agent both on the slab and the stone back just for the convenience -- thin set or portland slurry are the traditional materials to insure bond. Good to make sure the stone back is wet also. Otherwise the bedding mortar can dry too fast and shrink away from the stone creating that dreaded hollow sound. In addition to the saw blades for the grinder, a "contour" blade can help with the inside radius cuts, and a diamond cup wheel might be another good accessory for the grinder also. Look to places like GranQuartz, Granite City Tool, or one of the other tool suppliers for the counter top industry. Their salesmen can fit the tool to the stone, either dry cut or wet, where the big box stores only give you one or two choices of suspicious quality. As you can see from the posted pictures, tight laid random flagging (crazy work) is absolutely beautiful, whether as flat work, or on a wall,and well worth the extra cost IMHO. Good luck, and don't let the frustration get to you. Speed will come with experience. First time out, you not only will be learning the "tricks" but if it is a new material for you, learning how that particular stone works also.

JVC

JVC

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Driftwood

Any tips on grouting and cleanup? Do You ever seal? grout bags? Thank's

lukachuki

I also need to say that the above pictures I posted were just pulled off of google and are not my work. I'm bad about taking pictures of my own work. I should've put that little disclaimer in the above post w/ the pics

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"The problem with internet quotes is, you never know if they are authentic." -Abraham Lincoln-

Less with the jaw more with the paw!

POOLMANinCT

perhaps the biggest irregular stone time saver....

DON'T LET MRS HOMEOWNER LOOK
THROUGH THE PALLETS!!!!!!!!

don't ask.......

ray

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......Less with the jaw & More with the paw.....

lukachuki

do i detect a story?

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"The problem with internet quotes is, you never know if they are authentic." -Abraham Lincoln-

Less with the jaw more with the paw!

Dik Redi

We use soap stone for traceing(( by the way grt wrk)).. and for tuff ones like u mentioned , u said u used paper ?,, here a lil tech tip, take a peace of plexi-glass and drill a bunch of holes in a grid like fashion,, 3/4" increments.... and on the bond of the mortar , try a portland/warter mix( paint style) and prime bottom of stones. sticks like glue

lukachuki

did not understand the plexiglass trick????

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"The problem with internet quotes is, you never know if they are authentic." -Abraham Lincoln-

Less with the jaw more with the paw!