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Hard to believe

24K views 99 replies 16 participants last post by  loneframer 
#1 ·
Siding Roof Property House Home


I came across this job recently in an upscale development. I don't know the builder or the mason but it is hard to believe that someone is still so ignorant of the proper way to prep for thin veneer stone.
I have seen the results of this type of installation often when I am called to look at a three year old house with leaks and black mold. The tear off and replacement is ugly and expensive, and I hate this kind of work. The only ones happy in the whole mess are the lawyers.
 
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#6 ·
I'm no mason, nor am I stucco or applied veneer specialist, but I'd at least have used stucco-wrap (2-layers) for a bond break, but I prefer 2 layers of #15 felt, or better yet, #30 with 15 over top for a bond breaker.

Then wire lath with a scratch coat before applying veneer.
 
#8 ·
Regardless of the stone manufacturers recommendations, the effectiveness of the WRB can be compromised by the application of a cement based product. A double layer of WRB assures that the bond between the cementitious product and the water resistant barrier doesn't reduce the barriers effectiveness by providing a proper drainage plane.

http://www.benjaminobdyke.com/resources/167/HSWP1109.pdf

This is from the article. I highlighted the key points.

Felt as a product has evolved over the years. While once designated by weight – the 15-pound variety weighed 15 pounds per square (100 square feet) – modern-day equivalents are differentiated by number, i.e., #15 or #30, but weigh only 7.5 -12.5 pounds (#15) or 16-27 pounds (#30) per square. Because they weigh less, they also are less absorbent than earlier varieties, which may explain why some older felt-wrapped homes have better withstood the ravages of moisture over time.

These products do have a couple of unique features. One is they tend to improve their performance on the passage of moisture vapor (or MVTR - moisture vapor transmission rate) when they become wet. In addition, they tend to wrinkle when they are wetted. When installed in two layers, like in stucco or adhered masonry veneer, this wrinkling can create drainage gaps between the two layers. Both felt and Grade D building paper tend to be less durable than engineered, plastic housewraps (see below). Some building papers are not readily available in all areas of the country – they are widely used in Western U.S. and other areas where stucco cladding is favored, but less so in the Eastern U.S. and Canada.
2. Housewrap
Housewraps originated in the 1980s to serve as air barriers, and later evolved into moisture barrier products. Today they are becoming increasingly popular for their durability and ability to block water that has penetrated behind the exterior cladding from moving further into the exterior wall assembly. Housewraps are engineered plastic sheet membranes of varying sizes (typically .005-to-0.015 inches thick) that are wrapped around a house or other low-rise construction. They are specifically meant to resist the movement of water in the liquid state while allowing the movement of water in the vapor state.
Housewraps are designed to block water from reaching the sheathing and framing while allowing the free passage of water vapor so that wall cavities and framing lumber can dry to the outside of the building, reducing the possibility of mold and rot. Acting similar to a GORE-TEX® jacket, housewraps are water resistant on the outside, but also allow water vapor to pass through the building envelope in case moisture problems arise.
It is worth noting that housewraps are not designed to channel the direction of water movement. Since housewraps don’t allow the selective passage of water in one direction
or the other, moisture will move only in response to concentration or thermal gradients. While they resist liquid moisture movement toward the sheathing and framing, by
themselves they do not create a drainage space to purposefully channel water out of
the wall structure. In addition, the passage of moisture vapor is two-directional. While
helpful when allowing moisture vapor from inside the structure to exit, it can also allow moisture vapor to be driven into the wall, for instance when a wet stucco wall is hit by sunlight (solar drive).
Also, as moisture moves through wood and stucco, it extracts surfactants, including detergent, oil, resin, plasticizer and colorant. Because these additives greatly reduce the surface tension of water, a housewrap can eventually lose its repellency and allow water to soak through to underlying sheathing.
1 For wood siding, some manufacturers recommend priming the back of the siding with a water-repellent primer to help combat the problem.
 
#9 ·
I can't really gauge what's going on with the one photo other then the regular house wrap vs. stucco and the cold joints.

How do we know there's not two layers of Grade D under that?

What your specific complaint other then mold? - Not pokin' ya, just curious... I live for this stuff :whistling
 
#12 ·
That looks like a detail I've seen many times. Probably wood framed off of a slab or maybe one or two exposed coarses. The barge board detail is the natural break between foundation and siding, so framing and foundation are integrated for the effect.
 
#11 ·
I do understand how housewrap works. Liquid water is stopped while water vapour can pass through. Mortar can also absorb quite a bit of moisture and let it pass through, it's not plastic, it breathes. water is still stopped by the tyvek and water vapour is still passed through tyvek and then through the mortar. No problems that I can see. Maybe it's not the best way to do something but it's acceptable. Certainly not "hard to believe"
 
#14 ·
I guess you guys don't work in NY, here it is only about the size, the rest just eats into profit. We have worked on MANY "luxury" homes like the one pictured and what you see there is normal. They are selling these houses in the 700k-1m range that aren't worth 300k imho. Just a few quickies we have had in the last few years, all houses less than 7 years old.

1. 850k house-
issue- 5" cherry floor warping in 1st floor office, water spots on wall.
cause- garage gable runs into house side wall (stucco) no house wrap, no flashing, roof felt not run up wall. Water was just pouring into stud bays.

2. 900k house-
issue- cold basement
cause- framers forgot to frame area under gas fireplace bump out, I could crawl into basement from yard. this was missed by framers, siders, inspectors, EVERYONE

3. 500k house-
issue- 2nd floor bathroom cold, toilet supply freezing
cause- supply line in outside wall which was not insulated @ the rim joist, window also uninsulated

4. 850k house-
issue- 20ft ceiling in great room looked wavy from 2nd floor balcony
cause- drywallers hung boards over 2x4 bracing left on bottom of rafters from framing also rafters not crowned before install, looked like an ocean.

the list goes on & gets worse. this is what is wrong with "builders" at least the ones in our area, it is all a dollar game, beat every sub up as much as possible, use the cheapest materials in framing/siding/roofing ect, then cover it with pricey tile, textured paint, a high ceiling & big trim then let everyone else clean up the mess.
 
#15 ·
cultured stone doesn't call for anything between tyvek and diamond lath. Neither do any of the other manufaturers I've used,
Cultured stone quite specifically calls for two layers of 15# felt behind the metal lath. That is the least I would use over Tyvek or any other housewrap material, or a bare wall. If I can get the customer to go for it I use one of the commercially available drainage mats. This will be code soon and already is in a lot of places.
It is a given that water penetrates any masonry veneer and Tyvek by itself won't keep it out of the house.
I just recently looked at a five year old house that had the living room sealed off because of black mold. The heartbroken young couple had photos of the construction and the 1000 square feet of cultured stone was put up over Tykek alone. The builder is out of business and the mason has disappeared, and they are trying to figure out how to comeup with $25,000 to fix their "dream house".
There are similiar failures all over the country and a lot of ticking time bombs out there. This is quite a lot like the mess with all the EIFS failures. A bunch of contractors see easy money and don't bother to learn the proper methods, and nobody is checking their work.
 
#17 ·
I just went through this conversation a few days ago.

The builder wanted to just lath up the outside of a zip board wall and run it. Another guy agreed to it.

I told them no way, even if the zip board is laminated, install to manufacturer specs and be covered if something goes wrong, or otherwise good luck.

Lo and behold, both zip board and the stone company said absolutely do not install over the board without tar paper behind it.

The sad thing is, I am sure it has been done, and will continue to be done in the mindset of saving some time.
 
#20 ·
Just an FYI on adhered veneer warranties. You can do it anyway you want with no adverse reaction on the warranty since they are only warranting that the stone will not self destruct or color fade. They do not warranty adhesion of the stone, they do not warranty waterproofing, they do not warranty ANYTHING except that the stone will not crumble to dust or color fade, period.

That said the system has been around long enough for standards to be developed (although they are rapidly evolving), and the proper thing to do is follow best practices for cementious 3-coat stucco with the finish coat being adhered veneer.
 
#21 ·
View attachment 60970

I came across this job recently in an upscale development. I don't know the builder or the mason but it is hard to believe that someone is still so ignorant of the proper way to prep for thin veneer stone.
I have seen the results of this type of installation often when I am called to look at a three year old house with leaks and black mold. The tear off and replacement is ugly and expensive, and I hate this kind of work. The only ones happy in the whole mess are the lawyers.
I see no vapor barrier and lath.

Am I missing anything else.?

As I cannot comment on substrate, don't even go there.

Minimum was CDX full wrap, then corners w/CDX w/chip, then chip corners & black soaked fiber board as fill.

Damn, The Romans would have us fed to the lions. And rightly so for being thieves.

Remember that in your daily work.

As a mason contractor I passed up a res job because the general specified brick veneer up against shiny crud on 2x4 that specked 2x6 with CDX. (the home owner doesn't know)

Bye, bye my $??f/ft labor. But hello sleep.

It aint about you.

As a mason. It is masonry.

Have a Good Christmas.
 
#22 ·
Huh, this is interesting. I don't do much cultured stone and most of that is interior fireplaces. The only house I've done was an ICF. Right on the box it shows tyvek, then lath, parging then stone. I'm very surprised that the manufacturer isn't required to show how to install it so that it meets code.

And I understand also that the building code isn't best practise. It's only goal is to make structures last 50 years. Not so long really. The CN tower was only built with the same intent.

Don't forget, there are millions of roman buildings that aren't around anymore. Way more than are still around.
 
#27 ·
Tyvek is supposed to be able to holsd a puddle of water an inch deep for an hour (tyvek actually exceeds that by quite a bit, can't remember how much but it was considerable). While liquid water does get through cracked joints, the vast majority of the water going through is moisture. What I can see is on a real rainy day that perhaps more water gets in than out, until it stops raining and the moisture passes back through.

Perhaps my thick headedness is due to my climate. Only moderate rain and when there are huge temperature changes (mid winter we can get temperature fluctuations of over 60*F in 24hrs) it is typically dry (below 70% humidity) And as I say, I don't do stucco and do very little cultured stone (don't want to do anymore and this makes me want to do even less).

Alot of folks are also talking about #15 felt/tar paper as well. It differently from tyvek. It keeps water out and breathes through the lapped seams. I can see capillary action working quite well with that but not so much with thyvek.

the goretex analogy was very good. Put goretex against a solid object and the it won't let your skin breath. the difference that I see is that your house has vapour barrier to keep the high humidity that is inside the house from getting into the wall system. Any moisture that gets in the wall system should be coming from outside, and the tyvekmis keeping more water from coming in than it breathes out.
 
#31 · (Edited)
First, "breathing" seems to get some guys in a tiff, so let's substitute "breathing" for "permeability". Depending upon what your climate is like, permeability may have more or less of a bearing of importance, although permeability will always play some role in a wall assembly. Otherwise, we would be instructed to wrap both sides of the assembly with Visqueen and call 'er good.
 
#37 ·
When did I say that? There were some posters who wanted 3 or 4 layers of product before applying the lath. i think that 2 layers of WRB are speced for cultured stone. Whether it's tarpaper or tyvek is not the issue. The original poster showed someone putting cultured stone up over tyvek (who knows maybe the lad has a dozen layers of the stuff) which is code and manufacturer recommended.
 
#47 ·
E. ontario is very temperate. We do get extreme colds down to -40c/-40F for a few days each winter but it's also very dry at those times. We occasioanlly get chinooks come in from the west which will bring the temps up into the melting zone in 24 hrs. This is by far when the worst of our masonry damage occurs, particularly on the south side which is getting sun. It will then fall back down well below freezing which can do real damage in a short period.

Mould isn't a huge problem. Actually I just rememberd that a house I rented when I was younger developed a mould problem, however it had large cracks in the stucco, a leaking roof and no vapour barrier. no idea if it had tarpaper or no.
 
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