Footing For Courtyard Wall

fakie99

I am looking at doing a short (24") courtyard wall, to be set on a footing, then blocked up, then manufactured stone. My question is on the footing - I am in michigan, and code for foundations is 42" for frost heave. I feel a little silly putting a 24" wall on a 42" footing.

My plan was to dig the 18" wide trench to a depth of 24", set rebar, and pour into trench without full forms (only top 2x4s for screeding). Any thoughts on the longevity of an installation like that?

concretemasonry

Depending on the soil, it will heave up in the winter. If your are lucky and will heave together without cracking and then go down uniformly in the spring. - This is rare.

If it heaves differentially the wall and footing can crack allowing water to attack the joints.

You might want to consider a dry stack wall that has no concrete footing and can tolerate some movement since cracks are not a proble, - This is the reason the dry stacked sgmental retaining wall have virtually replaced the mortared walls used by many contractors and municipalities for slopes and curves when streeta are widened or the is a new development. - They fit the climate and the terrain better.

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fakie99

thanks for the input - the reason for the footing/mortared construction though is to be able to use cultured stone facing per the design. are you thinking that 24" is not a sturdy enough footer for a 24" high masonry wall?

CJKarl

2 choices if you ask me. Dig the footing down to 42"....or......build a dry stone wall on 10" of 1/2" stone.

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AtlRemodeling

We certainly do not have the frost heave problem here in Atlanta. However I know from all the work I did with SRW, almost all of the varieties of block were created in the midwest and/or northwest to eliminate the heave problem. If the specs say go 42" I think you will need either 42" or an SRW wall.

There are quite a few manufacturers that have tumbled block walls that "simulate stacked stone". See if you can move the client over to one of these or keep digging.

concretemasonry

fakie -

the problem is that you are using a 24" deep concrete footing that is apparently not deep enough.

the choices are to get the footing down below the frost depth or build something like an SRW wall with a shallow gravel base that does not allow the use of a concrete footing.

There are two types of optional walls; a rigid reinforced wall with a deep footing below frost or a dry stacked block wall with a shallow footing than tolerate the movement and return seasonally.

Just do not attach either of the two to a structure like a house foundation.

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Dick

Engineer, designer and consultant recently active domestically and internationally on construction and design in about 35 countries.

artisanstone

I am not from the frigid north. Our frost depth is 8". However, I've seen a lot of these type of posts, and I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to use a grade beam on gravel trench type of foundation. Essentially, dig your trench to frost line. Fill with compacted stone and drain to daylight. Pour foundation at top of trench. This seems far cheaper than pouring the footer down at the bottom of a hole, no?

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Michael Olding

artisanstone

Your suggestion is actually the technique that Frank Loyde Wright suggested for a footing designs for homes only the drain would be in the bottom of the trench (imagine that) then the footings were poured right at grade. Such an easy solution but of course but couldn't get it passed by the local authorities.

Great design and I'm surprised no one has taken off and run with it. I guess the cheaper dry stack products have just taken over the market for the time being. What a shame.

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ruskent

And not to mention that half of FLW stuff is falling apart.

Tscarborough

FLW was a passable architect, but he was in no way an engineer.

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concretemasonry

That is why he moved to Arizona from the Republic of Wisconsin to start Taliesin West. He did not use engeers and his wife ruled everything.

His homes in Minnesota are still doing well as are the dog house and gas station (still operating in northern Minnesota).

He was a great conceptual architect and his building were/are great even if you build one on the edge of rock over a creek in Pennsylvania.

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Dick

Engineer, designer and consultant recently active domestically and internationally on construction and design in about 35 countries.

CJKarl

I never get it why some of these architects build these "works of art" that really don't have much of a practical purpose. Guess that's my Yankee showing.

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Tscarborough

His "normal" homes are doing well. The rest has been torn down or costs much more than it is worth to preserve.

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Tscarborough

This is how I look at it:

An architect says, "This is how I want it to look, I don't care what it costs"

An engineer says, "This is how I want it built, I don't care what it costs"

A builder says, "This is what it will cost to build it, I don't care what it looks like or how it is built"

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concretemasonry

TS is absolutely correct!

You can see what is important when you see what is actually built.

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Dick

Engineer, designer and consultant recently active domestically and internationally on construction and design in about 35 countries.