Drystack Wall Veneer

Trimac

I have a client requesting DOW blueboard be installed over Tyvek prior to installing a dry-stack stone veneer wall. My question is how to tie the drystack to the wood frame wall through the blueboard. Additionally, my mason normally fills the mortar solid to the vapor barrier, providing no air gap. Any opinions on this?

artisanstone

What stone are you using, and what veneer thickness?

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Tscarborough

Something like this, although you will tie it to the sheathing differently:

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artisanstone

Tscarborough is correct. There are several issues though. One is that you should cut the blueboard into sixteen inch strips and install said strips horizontally. The tie will be in two pieces. The piece that screws to the wall will look like a right angle bracket. One leg will be up behind your blueboard, and the other will be sticking straight off the wall. Your second piece (which looks like what tscarborough showed) will attach to this. If you tape the seams of the blueboard afterward, I believe it will do the job of one of your two required vapor barriers, allowing your mason to build solid to it. This all assumes you're installing a thick veneer that carries its own weight to the footing.

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Trimac

Thanks for the replies. I am using a sandstone veneer that is native and local to Colorado. The thickness is 5-6" and will be supported by either a footing or 6" angle iron per engineer. Are the ties you are suggesting normal brick ties or something else? From what I understand, the ties are bonded within the mortar that is filling the gap, and not necessarily between the stones. Do you suggest that we put a thin layer of mortar between the dry stack in order to get some bonding between the stones? Again, thanks for your help and feedback.

artisanstone

I do.

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Trimac

Thanks. Are the ties typical brick ties?

Tscarborough

No, you have to have some way to adjust them vertically. As stated, the blueboard will be in 16" sections to fit between the anchors (16" OC vertically, and 24" OC horizontally). A vertical rod then slips into the anchors, and triangle ties attached to the rod are used in the bed joints of the stone.

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Trimac

Is there a particular name for this type of product? Would it be possible to use a typical tie and merely attach it to the framing at the desired height (16") and use the thickness of stone you need to align with the tie location? The stone pattern is random, and I think the mason could adjust his layout to line up with the tie within reason. Let me know if this would be a possible solution, as these ties are readily available and cost effective. Thanks.

Tscarborough

Readily available and cost effective are not the primary design criteria for veneer masonry walls, unfortunately for you.

Standard brick ties will not work with insulation behind stone. Call Wirebond, call Dur-o-wall, call Hohmann and Bernard. Give them your wall makeup and they will recommend a proper method to tie your veneer to the insulated substrate. This issue should have been decided while the drawings and specifications were being developed by the project engineers.

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Trimac

Thanks for the contact info. I will look into it. Thanks.

Tscarborough

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like an ass.

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Trimac

No worries. Thanks for all your input. I feel closer to a solution than I did this morning. You are right though, seems like the architect or engineer should have the answers...now you know why I'm posting this question.

artisanstone

The other issue with corrugated ties besides spacing, is wall thickness. Corrugated ties are meant for a 5" veneer thickness. Once you start adding insulation, you may be at a 7-8" thickness, which doesn't give the corrugated ties enough grab. They should end 1" from the veneer face.

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www.artisanstoneworks.net
www.stonefoundation.org

Trimac

In a drystack wall veneer, where does the primary strength and integrity lie? Are we relying on the bonding of the mortar behind the stone? With only a negligible amount of mortar between the stones at best, I can't think you can rely on that. Thoughts?

artisanstone

You are correct. It is not sufficient to rely on the bonding properties of mortar for a 4"-8" thick veneer. These should be built so they are capable of standing by themselves. I see a lot of junk out there, but here's my personal list of rules to ensure good construction.
1. Each stone should rest comfortably on the wall without mortar before it is set.
2. The beds (top and bottom) of each stone should be at least 2/3 of the veneer thickness (4" for a 6" veneer) and reasonably flat.
3. The mortar bed should engage the back half of the stone completely. The lower front arris should touch the stone below.
4. Beds should always be near 90 degrees from the face of the wall. (I see this rule broken all the time. Masons install what I call "knife edged" stones where the stone looks pretty and tight from the face, but the bed is cut back on a 45, and can't rest properly on the stone below.
5. The face of the finished work should be plumb and in plane, regardless of the condition of the framing behind.
6. Work should follow the rule of "one over two", which refers to proper bonding.

Drystack style work, when done properly, is quite slow compared with other styles of stonework. It is quite popular right now, though, so you tend to see all kinds of corners being cut in order to lower the cost of it. Once it's completed, all that cheating is hidden from view for the most part, and everyone's happy. The nature of stonework is that its timescale for decay is very long. So if your nice new drystack style started falling apart in ten or twenty years, that would be ridiculous in terms of masonry, but it kinda fits right in in terms of modern home construction.

Sorry for the ramble, I like to build stuff right and it pisses me off to see what's typical out there.

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www.artisanstoneworks.net
www.stonefoundation.org

Trimac

What is your opinion of an airspace between the back of the stone and the foam board insulation? My mason likes to slug it full of mortar indicating that helps lock everything together as a unit. The reason for the foam board is my clients desire to add R-value to the walls behind the stone. We are in Colorado and he burns propane, hence the desire. Is there any need for additional vapor barrier other than the Tyvek (taped seams) and the foam board (taped seams) such as tar paper? Thanks for the education.

neolitic

I'm curious as well.
The penetrations from the ties
seem problematic, as does the lack of
the "finger space"?
A couple of local tract builders had to
eat some major repairs not long ago.
They were laying brick veneer
with no finger space, and had wide spread
mold claims.
The "Action News" type videos showed Tyvek
and such behind all the brick work.

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Trimac

Our dry climate does not experience widespread mold issues. We have more problems with wood products drying out and shrinking than we do mold. Only if water is introduced behind masonry from improper flashing, etc. have I seen mold problems in remodels. I am not too concerned with the penetration of the ties through the foam. The ties would be installed after the Tyvek layer.

neolitic

I hear that, you guys have to look up
moisture in the dictionary!

I was hoping to hear from Scarborough
or Artisan or others for their thoughts.
I came up with always the finger space.
I've seen more and more without, and then
the law suits...
Just wondering what is the latest take.
Sounds like these guys didn't really
repeal the law of gravity, they just
didn't know how to do the work.

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