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Dry Stacked Ledge

6K views 18 replies 6 participants last post by  Dik Redi 
#1 ·
What is your opinion on dry stacked block for raising a brick ledge to grade? The top of the concrete footing is about 16" below grade and I was thinking about dry stacking 2 courses of 6" x 8" x 16" block on it and starting the brick veneer on that. This is a structural slab that is built up about 24" above grade with a concrete filled block wall. So the 6" block would have the block wall behind them, soil in front, and the concrete footing underneath.

I've been told by a few locals that this is a common way of bringing the brick ledge to grade, although I've never seen it. Would you stager the courses like building a layed block wall and fill with concrete?
 
#3 ·
Definitely use a mortar joint for stability and proper support for the brick. Although you do not have much load, you will really get very little vertical strength out out of a dry stacked wall.

If that is "common" way to do things in your area, I would hate to buy a house there.

You should also have some brick ties to hold the block in place when the soil shrinks or the kids, dogs and rain remove the soil.

What you are proposing is a very tacky way to save a small amount of mortar.
 
#4 ·
Most of the architects and engineers in my area require us to use mortar
and a running bond in situations like you describe. Anything below grade
is grouted solid also. Mortar joints will help stop water penetration below grade.
A good mason can lay two courses like you describe almost as fast with mortar
as without and the guys laying the veneer will appreciate a level course
to start off on.
 
#7 ·
Did I say something funny? I'm asking because I don't know. If I knew I would not have asked. There is not much other way to tie the block for the brick ledge into the foundation wall block, since the foundation wall is already in place and has a slab on top of it.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Considering that the veneer will rely upon the block for it's integrity, drystacking the block is not a good option. You should lay the block, and be sure to also install proper flashing and weeps. Why save a couple of dollars upfront that will cost you thousands in the end?
Interesting that you bring up the topic of flashing and weeps. I've asked 2 different local brick layers in the area if they installed weeps on their veneers. Both replied that the only time they ever install them is on FHA financed homes since it was a requirement on those houses. One of them has been laying brick for 34 years, the other 41 years. Both lay brick on very expensive homes in the city nearby where building codes are enforced, but there is apparently no code calling for weeps. And no, it's not a national or international code. It's a derative of the IBC that the local politicians and builders got together and hammered out years ago.

That said, I plan to insist both be installed on my house because I do not want water sitting on top of my footings. And that should prevent that from happening.
 
#13 ·
Well, here's the deal. The concrete footings are stepped due to the slope the house is being constructed on. On the high side the slab is 3 8" courses above the surrounding grade. On the low side it's 5 courses. When the final grade is established, the slab will be approximately 18" above grade all the way around the house. This will allow a minimum of 6" drainage slope of the grade away from the house. I have approximately 85' of footing that will have brick veneer on it that is 4 courses from the slab to the footing. Then I have approximately 50' of footing that is 5 courses below the slab. What I should have done is had the block mason run a course of 6" block along side the 8" block and tied it into the foundation wall with ties when he laid the foundation walls. I did not do that because I was planning on just running the brick veneer all the way to the footing all the way around, figuring 16" of extra brick veneer for 50' and 8" of extra veneer for 85' was not worth the trouble of raising the brick ledge with another block wall. After the block foundation was in place the guy doing that suggested the dry stacked block to raise the veneer. This did 2 things. 1) It saved a few brick...No big deal, you're correct. 2) It allowed us to go ahead and slope the dirt away from the house to keep water from collecting around the footings when it rains.

So I run this idea by a local structural engineer. He said he didn't have a problem with it so long as the footings were level, which they are, stating that there wasn't much weight on it anyway and it wasn't structural and should be fine. So we did it that way. I on the other hand never really liked the ideal and still don't, but was assured by everyone I asked that it was fine to do it that way and they did it that way all the time on multi-million dollar homes on slopes and have not had any issues or complaints.

My problem with it is, as it is, the blocks are just dry stacked in there, not a thing holding them other than the soil on one side and the foundation wall on the other. It looks to me like they could tilt outward under load and all the brick veneer come tumbling down. Plus when it rains the block voids fill with water (remember there is no roof yet, just a slab and framing has begun but is no where near complete). Guess where that water sits, right smack on top of the footings..Bad...Bad...Bad... Granted I insisted the footings be over built by alot. They are 4' deep with 30" on crushed compacted stone and then 18" on concrete with 6 runs of 5/8" rebar. In places, namely the area where the steps are the concrete is up to 30" or so deep. The footings are also 30" wide. So the house isn't going anywhere. Also this is in an area of the country where the frost line is maybe 10" deep during a very bad winter, usually the ground freezes maybe an inch or 2 deep 3 or 4 times a year.

Now, everytime I look at the dry stacked block for the brick to set on on that 135', I get a sickening feeling. So I know it needs fixing. I need to have someone come in after the framing crew is finished and dig that section of the footing back out and remove the dry stacked block.

After that's done, then I figure I can fix it right 2 different ways.

1) Have the mason lay the 6" block on the step downs and tie it into the footings with brick ties, bring the entire brick ledge to the same height. Fill the block with concrete, grout, or mortar and then lay the veneer on top.

2) Have the mason just lay brick veneer on the step downs and bring it all up as he goes, filling the void of the portion of the veneer that is below grade with mortar.

I think either way will be fine. Laying the block may be a little cheaper, but probably not much, especially after you grout them solid. How would you fix it if it were your house?
 
#15 ·
The fact that they have been doing it wrong for 75 years has no bearing on the issue. Any veneer system is designed based upon the assumption of water penetration. That is the primary design criteria of the system; it is able to deal with a certain amount of moisture in the wall. Proper flashing and weeps are an integral detail of what is required for the system to perform. Putting un-flashed, un-weeped masonry veneer against wood backup is not a good thing.
 
#16 ·
Hehe...I read an article dicussing it a week or so ago, I'll have to see if I can find it again. Anyway it was written by a building inspector and he said that when he looks at a house he expects to find them on newer constructions and reports it if he does not, but if he's checking a house that is 10 or 15 years old and doesn't find them, he takes no action and doesn't even mention it on his report, claiming it was generally exceptable building practice not to put them back then, but now that's changed. Anyway, I agree with you, all veneers should have them.
 
#19 ·
Then he is a sorry building inspector. The fact that something was a "generally acceptable building practice" at a given point in time does not excuse him from his duty to note and detail defects in the construction of what he is inspecting under current best practices.
I feel for you alil bit Dahammer,,, first off i agree with Tscar comments about your local inspector,, i i find it even more unsettling that one of your local STRUCTURAL ENGINEER would allow dry stack for a shelf that will hold more weight then one would think.
 
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