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Comparing Strategies in Masonry

25K views 166 replies 28 participants last post by  HgWhiz 
#1 ·
I would like to discuss not only different strategies but also problems that have been solved and problems that we would like to solve the world of Masonry.

Since it is not very productive or profitable to analyze which way works best while on the company clock I thought that this is the appropriate place to exchange our ideas and opinions.
 
#87 ·
it is when you swing them onto the stockpile that they chip.
Wow, years ago when I was a helper you were expected to learn how to stack without chipping. With just the right amout of swing, you can land a block softly even up over your head. :)

And it's interesting the mention of handles. I never heard of that till I moved to the west coast. Out here guys will pick up a block with one hand then butter both ears of it manipulating it to the vertical, then back to horizontal to lay in the wall. Man, talk about carpel-tunnel!

I was taught years ago to keep the line on the finished side - usually towards you - lay with two hands, and butter the block you just laid.

Even with the "handles" they have in the blocks here these days I usually still do it the way I learned except sometimes with double open end blocks.

Dave
 
#88 ·
I was working with a kid (sub) this passed fall who insisted on the line bieng on the outside when the block got above belly height, said he didn't want to have to lift over the line. That course stuck out like a sore thumb.All the blocks were slightly twisted, out of plumb and overhanging a bit. He couldn't see his line properly. I still got paid but I'll never do it again.
 
#91 ·
Yeah i could have been all firm and hardnosed about where the line went but I wanted to show him. similar to how I showed him when he was using a twig on his lead and thing were 1/4" out of line real quick at his end. I also didn't want him to walk cause I needed the help.

And no, I'm not real picky about block at all. I care about doing it well enough to pass and get paid, better if possible but not something I stay up at night about .
I don't do very much, probably only 1000 on average in a year, some years more, some not at all, I do prefer it to brick though. I did labour for a mason of german heritage though who did a lot of block and he was VERY particular abou how he wanted things done. In my experience so far, his way has been best that I've come across.

Like anything, you get used to what you know and it's when things change then there's a learning curve.
 
#92 ·
I am always in to learn something new...I havent done much block work in past year though...maybe under 1k...I was supposed to get big project,but customer bailed last second due to financing issues and left me with cool 2k for doing nothing(termination of contract).

But still,I would love to tear into it.

I find its good to enlighten ones who know how to do only ONE WAY,because that gives them option of doing it other way and most of the time way I do is usually much easier than theirs.
 
#93 ·
JoMomma . I do think you're right. The guys out here in the west mostly want a line on the outside. I think it's part of that one-handed thing :)

But they learned their trade that way and lay them fine with the line on the outside. But don't get me started on some other stuff, like they'll build a foot scaffold, put the wall up 8 or 9 courses, then build the rest of the wall on a regular scaffold with the planks starting the wall out at your toes.
Dave
 
#94 ·
line

The question of line in or out is not so much the criteria of blocks lipping or hacking as is the care in laying them. I remember a new guy (first day working for me) asking what side do i want looking good. I said both, and if you don't know what you are doing,don't try doing it here. To ensure good results on block if condusive,we snap a line on concrete, mark out Both ends of head joints with pencil,and spray lines with verathane clear varnish. The lay out can then get rained on etc.and still remain. At this point six guys can jump in cause every place can be a starting place. I require the first two courses to be cross leveled and EVERYONE to lay the same distance from line(just a crack of dayl light between block and line. Every four feet a plumb mark is placed on unit layed. All joints are struck both sides. Even those below grade ( though not twice or brushed ) This will provide you a wall you will have no trouble selling to a architect.
 
#95 ·
The question of line in or out is not so much the criteria of blocks lipping or hacking as is the care in laying them. I remember a new guy (first day working for me) asking what side do i want looking good. I said both, and if you don't know what you are doing,don't try doing it here. To ensure good results on block if condusive,we snap a line on concrete, mark out Both ends of head joints with pencil,and spray lines with verathane clear varnish. The lay out can then get rained on etc.and still remain. At this point six guys can jump in cause every place can be a starting place. I require the first two courses to be cross leveled and EVERYONE to lay the same distance from line(just a crack of dayl light between block and line. Every four feet a plumb mark is placed on unit layed. All joints are struck both sides. Even those below grade ( though not twice or brushed ) This will provide you a wall you will have no trouble selling to a architect.
fjn,thanks,thats same way I do it..that varathane trick was taught to me by some old-timer and I thought that was a great idea...also spray-paint is another way to do it.
 
#96 ·
I was taught with the line on the inside and in Florida learned to do it with the line on the outside. If I can help it , i will never put the line on the inside again. It really makes a difference not only in speed but its so much less aggravation with it on the outside.

In about 1 motion I can slap mud on one head, then slap it on the block and guide it right in place. No navigating the line with the trowel, lifting the block over the line, banging into it- nothing.

Of coarse to get the full appreciation of the line on the outside you have to stack your blocks flat.
 
#97 ·
In about 1 motion I can slap
No need to try to sell us JBM :) But I can tell you those of us who keep the line on the finished side of the wall think it's the best way too.

I know it's easier not to have to lift over the line, but I learned to do it so long ago that I don't give it a thought. I just think you end up with a nicer wall.

Part of this too I think is that if you want guys to lay 12" blocks by themselves you're going to have to put the line on the outside.
Dave
 
#100 ·
No need to try to sell us JBM :) But I can tell you those of us who keep the line on the finished side of the wall think it's the best way too.

I know it's easier not to have to lift over the line, but I learned to do it so long ago that I don't give it a thought. I just think you end up with a nicer wall.


Dave
I hear ya. I learned like that as well. I just wanted to share that I found the way they do it in Florida much more comfortable, less strain and faster.
 
#98 ·
dbros -

In FL, very often the "finished" side is on the outside since the inside gets stripped or firred and the outside is plastered or sprayed, so variations on the outside of the masonry wall are more critical.
 
#101 ·
Right.

The first leads on a house are 7 courses as well. "Bottoming" out the house is done off the slab, 7 courses. Not many people could lay the 5th, 6th, and 7th courses with the line in the front.

This is a critical part of the process as most production houses are "bottomed out" by 10 with guys starting the garage leads off scaffolding.
 
#99 ·
block work

JBM I learned the trade when alot of mass walls were still being built. As a result of that era the work was done both over hand and off hand,in most cases we had few choices on line position. From that perspective when block became more prevalent the line was USUALLY placed on the side that was considered more as the "finished" side. The theory on that was the line provided a better guide to allow for more accurate placing of masonry blocks. Some manufactures produced blocks that were like fba brick,the tolorences negated the chance to have both faces faced off accurately. Those companies fell by the way side and now the block is like a fbx brick. Very exacting,allowing both faces to be laid with no lipping or hacking on either side. The bottom line each era and region has their methods.
 
#106 ·
They are built without outriggers and the 8' houses are built without any jumps. 9'4" and 10" we jump once and work from our ankles to our chins, but without outriggers. Setting the staging would be in the way.

Cuts are for the most part a hammer. Pop the ends off for a 13 and 14, 12"'s are sometimes the creased? ones that you can cut intelligently with a hammer- not always though.
 
#108 ·
and work from our ankles to our chins, but without outriggers.
wow. That's kinda what some guys around here do. They don't really know about outriggers so they don't use the steps in the scaffold at all. That's why they struggle to get it 8 courses high, then put a 5' frame up with the planks all the way up top. Your first course is at your toes. I don't work that way though slows you down too much ;)


12"'s are sometimes the creased? ones that you can cut intelligently with a hammer- not always though.
On jobs where we know we've got a lot of 12" pieces we buy them pre-made or just a 12" half block laid sideways.
 
#112 ·
wow. That's kinda what some guys around here do. They don't really know about outriggers so they don't use the steps in the scaffold at all. That's why they struggle to get it 8 courses high, then put a 5' frame up with the planks all the way up top. Your first course is at your toes. I don't work that way though slows you down too much ;)



On jobs where we know we've got a lot of 12" pieces we buy them pre-made or just a 12" half block laid sideways.
Well if the house is 8' then we wouldnt jump all the way up, we could finish the house workin comfortable. 9'4" and 10' and above we work by our ankles to save the one jump.

Some days we used to get the 12's, some days no :rolleyes: Same with knockouts. and 6 heighs. Like a box of chocolate ya know :laughing:
 
#121 ·
2 comments on that video.

1. Who are the spectators? I can't believe so many people would give up part of a day to watch someone lay block. Must be everyones wives, girlfriends and mothers lol

2. Those guys are quick, no doubt about it, but from my tiny little screen I could see block that was significantly above and under the line. And when the sun hit those walls there would be shadows everywhere.

I still take my hat off, I just don't have the fast twitch muscle to ever be that quick.

Also, how in the world do they lay a head in the rack and immediately put the line block on it?
 
#122 ·
I didn't watch the video, but what I saw in person a few years ago was they built 4 course leads which provided enough set to pull the string fairly tight. Remember this is in Vegas where it is dryer than a popcorn fart so the block set up just about instantly.

If I remeber correctly, they would lay a full and a half to pull the course that started with a half.

As far as quality goes...Well lets just say that I would not try to sell any of those walls. Same goes for the fastest brick contest. Quality was only good enough for back up work or false work. No way anyone is paying for a finished wall to look that rough. But it makes for good headlines and the GC's have a way to figure how many hours it will take to finish that apartment complex they are bidding.:whistling
 
#125 ·
1600 sqft is about 1800 block divided by 5 installers plus you , that's 300 block a day(more cause you were probably just getting in the way hahahah). I could see it if you could put the rebar in at the end of the day and not have to fill. Still humping it though, impressive day in day out.

Are these the walls for the house? If so is that typical in Fla
 
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