Black Heart Bricks... Defective?

cretzler

I'm investigating some bricks used in a neighborhood in Detroit and they are black/grey on the inside. I have seen black-heart concrete bricks before, but not clay and I'm curious if these bricks are defective.

Here are photos with one sliced open...

Attached Images

  

tkle

Nope.

concretemasonry

What is the apparent problem? - That would make it possible to determine your information needs. There may not be anything wrong with the physical product.

What makes you think/assume there is a problem?

Were there failures or only some complaints/comments.

Was there a specification for the brick application and was it based on an ASTM standard or a visual selection by someone?

Because clay brick go through a very complex process in manufacture, many appearances can be acheived depending on the desired effect. Clay brick are locally manufactured using unique local raw materials (clay) and are frequently transported long distances for use in different climates because of the properties.

Concrete brick are manufactured using local materials and do not go through some the extreme processes (heat) that cause changes in size, shape and color dimensions. Usually, this permits a local supplier to create a matching product within a range normally desired. Because they are distributed over a smaller area, the are made to withstand the local conditions if weathering is a factor.

Very often, unqualified people select products from visual/physical samples without any documentation of knowledge of appilcabilty for the specific project. This is very common on municipal jobs with "ivory tower" architects or developers where an impact is desired to get people to buy.

Knowing the Detroit market, anything is possible. I suggest looking at the specifications or supplier before assuming a product is unsuitable. In Minnesota, we have many very strong, southern hard fired brick that are not durable, so just dig a little deeper than an internet forum or be more specific.

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Dick

Engineer, designer and consultant recently active domestically and internationally on construction and design in about 35 countries.

cretzler

Only some complaints on appearance and durability. The specs were ASTM C216 (SW) and the brick and wall meets the specs thus far, its now just a curiosity of what the black material is and if it will affect the durability of the bricks.

Tscarborough

It is less fired material. I see it a lot on old brick, but it should not matter at all as long as it is confined to the centers. The outer 1/8" to a 1/4" of the brick is all that is vitrified anyway.

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concretemasonry

cretzler -

You still have not answered the first question, which is "what is the problem" and are there any real problems and only opinions without any testing or failures.

Document the specs meet the ASTM spec for severe weathering. It may require an additional report from the manufacturer that they meet the SW requirements.

Whoever selected the brick is responsible for determining if the brick meet the appreance requirements and if it was an architecturally controlled project, a sample panel may have been required and approved prior to construction. If an amateur or bureaucrat selected and approved the brick choice, it is their responsibility.

ASTM standards recognize that there are variation in materials like brick and usually include a section in the stanadrds on appearance, tolerences, chiping and acceptance. For every person that says a brick to too red, there will be another to say it is nor red enough; for every person saying there are too perfect, there are others that will say they not irregular enough. - Simply, they are subjective opinions and any problems must be corrected before product acceptance and construction. Any personal opinions must be voiced before construction procedes too far.

The color of the interior is of no importance.

As you should know as someone active in building research, when brick are made the firing of the brick causes the clay to change color and it only takes several degrees temperature defference (at 1500 degrees) to cause a color difference. The loacation of the brick in a cube during firing and during cooling down obviously has a variation. Just because the color may be different, does not mean there is a difference in the material. - Many people pay a premium for color variations.

Very often durability problems are also due to designs that impose unusual condition on materials. These design flaws very often cannot be met by any material at the specific location.

You should document the problems and get test reports showing acceptance and test reports showing a failure instead of just some concerns or curiosities. - That is where to start and investigation.

__________________
Dick

Engineer, designer and consultant recently active domestically and internationally on construction and design in about 35 countries.

stacker

i find this in acme brick here in oklahoma all the time.it does not deter from the performance of the brick on bit.the only problem i find is ill get a little slag when cutting them.

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cretzler

The problem is that the homeowners are convinced they have received a defective product and there is a hefty lawsuit involved...

Thanks for your help Dick, et al. I had a hunch that it was a temperature/firing difference, so I turned here for some initial opinions as I have never really worked with brick before.

Tscarborough

They are not defective because of that, but may be for other reasons.

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stacker

i hate working for people like that.i worked a house 2 years ago,11,000 sg ft home.the people had money,but almost everyone who worked on the house had money deducted from their final bill for one reason or another.suppliers were asked to lower prices because this was defective or that defective.
its just not right.most people will go ahead and take off money just to get paid.i know i did.they owed me 6 grand and back charged me $900.00 for a window that my help supposedly damaged with an air hose.and for getting too much mortar on the brick mold.

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http://ok.local.yahoo.biz/knabemasonry/index.html

concretemasonry

cretzler -

Is there any actual freeze/thaw problem and deterioration at the present time. - Or is it just that the owners "think" the brick are defective?

Has the brick supplier/manfacturer been contacted? It would be good to see some past test reports and a letter from the manufacturer explaining that the color within the brick is parto of the product characteristics. I would think any reputable brick manufacturer will have some old tests to justify the claim the brick are SW.

The brick could also be tested in a freeze-thaw chamber to failure and determine if they are SW. This test will take some time to get scheduled (the chambers are used very heavily for research) and the test will take quite a bit of time to run a set of samples through the cycles required. This test is not just a quick $100 test.

The homeowners should pay for this to justify their claim, especially if the manufacturer can supply a verifying test. If the brick do not meet the ASTM standard, then the homeowners can just include the cost in the claim and the manufacturer/dealer should pay.

The location and exposure of the deterirated brick (if there are any) is also important. Even the best product may fail if it subjected to the wrong conditions. This could also bring the designer into the picture.

__________________
Dick

Engineer, designer and consultant recently active domestically and internationally on construction and design in about 35 countries.

cretzler

As far as I know, there is a large amount of chips, extreme efflorescence, and color variations (black spots) that didn't meet their expectations.

We have been in contact with the manufacturer, but I'm not sure about the specifics myself. The SW claim may have to be tested like you mentioned, we shall see...

Tscarborough

Those are all appearance issues (other than the efflorescence which is most likely not an issue with the brick itself). The SW rating does not address chipping, size tolerance or color range. For that you have to rely on the appearance classifications. Do you know the classification on these brick (FBX,FBS,FBA)?

See Tech note 9A on the BIA.org website for details.

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cretzler

Fbs.

Tscarborough

Allowable chips on FBS:

95-100% are allowed to have chips smaller than 1/4" on the edges and smaller than 3/8" on the corners

Plus

10% are allowed to have chips 1/4 to 5/16 on the edges and 3/8 to 1/2" on the corners.

You would have to have a pretty severe chippage problem to fail that specification.

The color issue should have been resolved by a sample panel before construction, and if there was a panel made and it is reflective of the color blend in the wall (and the number of chips), then there is not much that can be argued.

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concretemasonry

The owners are trying to put up a smokescreen using morrors.

Their expectations do not mean anything when the they chose the product based on a sample the builder/contractor offered them.

The claim of lack of durability is probably without any merit or grounds and is just a point to be used to open the door to the personal expectations situation, which is unfounded if they selected the brick. If the builder/contractor selected the brick, then it is between the builder and the homeowner.

Someone went through the trouble to find and saw the carefully selected brick samples. - Who did that?

Efflorescence is a product of the materials, design and exposure and is really not relavent.

__________________
Dick

Engineer, designer and consultant recently active domestically and internationally on construction and design in about 35 countries.

cretzler

My company visited the site and did some deconstructive analysis, I sliced one of the bricks they brought back to get a better look at the black insides...
The lawsuit is very large and doesn't just involve the brick.
Thank you for your help guys, but I'm a little shaky on sharing much more info about this case on the internet. This forum is really great and I hope to turn to it in the future!

concretemasonry

It sure sounds like more of a design/construction problem compounded by a owner that has expectations that may not be realistic.

I hope your firm has good forensic engineers that can deliver when it comes to a legal situation. These situations can be either tough or enjoyable depending on the research done prior to the hearing or arbitration.

__________________
Dick

Engineer, designer and consultant recently active domestically and internationally on construction and design in about 35 countries.

tkle

A common mistake when building panels and presenting samples is submitting too perfect an example.

Tscarborough

Yep, I go drag out old crap from the boneyard for sample panels.

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