Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing

 
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Old 02-20-2012, 09:50 PM   #101
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


Request a visit to a brick manufacturing facility near you. The color of the finished brick has little to nothing to do with the color of the clay body, with few exceptions.
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Old 02-20-2012, 09:59 PM   #102
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


i haven't seen a modern buff coloured brick. I'm not talking about the face of the brick. I'm talking about the body of the brick itself. Hanson has a few yellow bricks, but they aren't what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about are the same as old red/orange bricks but they are a grey to buff colour, not yellow. I haven't seen any except in century old houses. I'll see if I can find a picture and see if I can figure out how to download them.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:11 PM   #103
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


I do not mean the face, I am talking about the whole brick. I have buff bricks and dark red bricks made from the same clay body. They add minerals and adjust the amounts of clay from different pits, but before production the clay body is indistinguishable to the eye. Robinson brick (now owned by General Shale) has been producing the same color range of brick for 30+ years using various and assorted quarries. They excel in maintaining the color match year to year by close control of the properties of the blended clay body.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:21 PM   #104
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


Well when I was a kid my mom signed me up for pottery class. There were 2 types of clay there. a grey/white clay and a brown/red clay. When we would fire them the grey/white would become buff and the red/brown would become red. The same colour as the 2 bricks I'm describing.

Later when I was in trade school we had a fellow come in who was well versed in fireplaces and masonry heaters. in the course of his presentations he talked about the 2 different types of brick and how the clay used for the buff coloured bricks didn't contain near as much iron oxide and had we noticed that firebrick were always a buff colour.

Perhaps the brick manufacturer you mentioned only have a buff coloured clay and add iron oxide to get a typical red coloured brick, I don't know. But I do know there are 2 basic different clays, I also know that the red is much more common and also quite a bit cheaper because it's more common. Like I say, i will try to get pictures and post them.

Regardless, if a buff coloured brick was used to obtain brick dust then it could be used for typical mortar making but if a red coloured brick is used it couldn't be unless it was for a red or darker coloured joint
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:27 PM   #105
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


Regardless, the mineral content, not the visible color of the clay body determines the vitrified color. In regards to the color of the brick dust used in stucco/mortar it will be the color of the finished product. Red bricks give a pinkish or orangish hue, buff will give a yellow tint.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:30 PM   #106
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


Right, the mineral content. iron oxide gives a red colour, less to no iron oxide gives a grey colour and titanium oxide gives a yellow colour. They can be naturally occurring or added at the factory.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:33 PM   #107
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


Kaolin produces the white color, iron the red, magnesium and vanadium the brown to black range, but none of those are typically visible in the clay body, other than the kaolin.

Titanium oxide is used as a glaze, which is a whole different issue than the clay body.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:35 PM   #108
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


ok i guess the titanium oxide is just in mortar dyes
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:44 PM   #109
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


It is cheaper and more effective to use white cement than Titanium oxides, they are more often used in paints and coatings.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:50 PM   #110
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


The only reason I mentioned the titanium oxides was the one time we did a job that involved yellow I mean YELLOW joints we used a dye from Ferox and reading the bag i saw that it was basically titanium oxide.

Like i say, i have minor experience with grey clays and have seen the brick that it produces. And as i say, it was mentioned by this fireplace/masonry heater mason that was teaching us fireplace theory, about the lower iron oxide content that the buff brick contained.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:28 AM   #111
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


There are mortar dyes available that contain titanium oxide, SGS makes one, 60H for example.
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Old 02-21-2012, 05:47 PM   #112
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


"1000*C seemed to be the point that C3S was developed rather than C2S."

Yes, although I think modern cement kilns get considerably hotter than that. For clarity, what you call C2S I know as belite and alite is C3S.

"At what proportion to the lime would give a compressive strength in and around 400psi? NHL is pretty much unavailable here and i don't do near enough resto to bring it in myself, but if I could get a few dozen bags of this metakaolin it may do me for a while. I'm assuming it doesn't go off on it's own from moisture? "
It is pretty stable.
It requires the CaOH in order to become reactive? Any change in the mixes appearance using it?"
None, since it is white.

Even though I have metakaolin, I usually use NHL since it is available about 2 mi from my house. You might be able to get some NHL samples to use as references to figure out your compressive strengths. That is what I may do this spring since I have a white stucco job. 400 psi is pretty soft. You will exceed that in 6 months at around 2:1 aggregate/binder with NHL 2.
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:20 PM   #113
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


Thanks Roger. 400PSI was sort of a starting point, a mildly random # is soft enough for any stonework that I do but actually probably too hard for some of the brick repairs.

Thanks for clarifying the Belite/C2S, C3S/Alite issue. I'll look back at your previous post to see what they are used for.
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:33 PM   #114
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


Not to get into the materials used for getting plasticity and workability in mortar, this information may help.

The color of the clay that is used to make brick can be changed quite a bit by the firing process that changes the chemistry depending on the very high firing temperature. All the iron in a clay can be modified by temperature.

When it comes to mortar colors, the only good and permanent colors (not "dyes") are iron oxides than can be anywhere from yellow to tan, red or black and are modified during the processing temperatures. They are more costly. Carbon blacks are just "soot" that is embedded in the cementiteous material and will erode and wear away over time. They are cheap and that is why they are used to give a quick, dark color initially.

Other real pigments are chrome oxides (very, very pricey and strong for pigmenting concrete) and titanium, which is very commonly used in white paint, but not too effective in concrete because of the cost and the influence of the aggregates.

Dyes are usually just the cheap aniline materials that do not have permanence in concrete materials and are not used in real permanent concrete.
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:16 PM   #115
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


Interesting. Any insight into the grey clay/ red clay debate? The grey clay is grey before firing and after.
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:46 PM   #116
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


Dom-mas, have you seen these pics:

http://brokebrick.com/brickyard.htm

The low-fired brick (mainly pallets and trash are burned)) are bright pink to bright buff depending up where they are located in the kiln (clamp). The clay body is grey-brown. The only clay that I know of that fires "true" is highly refractory clay which is mainly yellow/gray and fires yellow. It can and is often changed by additives though.
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:56 PM   #117
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


As trivia, do you know where the color term," Buff" comes from?

Here is a hint:

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Old 02-21-2012, 08:22 PM   #118
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


well i will guess that it's from "buff"alo (bison) hides.

The clay that mexican fellow is using is similar to the clay but quite a bit more yellow than the clay that I am thinking of. Some of the brick that I saw was however the same colour as the brick that I am thinking of. So a yellow clay can produce a grey or a reddish brick depending on where in the kiln it's fired. I think that's what you're saying.
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Old 02-21-2012, 08:48 PM   #119
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


Where simply determines the temp in that situation. My only real point is that initial clay body color is not really indicative of final brick color, and thus color can alone can not be used to determine a firing temp without a lot more information. Originally we were talking about which brick dust would make a good gauge material, and color is not the primary determinant of a good one.
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Old 02-21-2012, 08:58 PM   #120
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Re: Bagged Premixed Lime Mortar For Tuckpointing


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tscarborough View Post
Where simply determines the temp in that situation. My only real point is that initial clay body color is not really indicative of final brick color, and thus color can alone can not be used to determine a firing temp without a lot more information. Originally we were talking about which brick dust would make a good gauge material, and color is not the primary determinant of a good one.
Well, not exactly. My question about the buff or red brick dust was about the colour it would give a mix. Rogerhattam had said that the brickdust he used coloured the mix slightly, so my thought was that a grey or buff brick dust at 10% of the lime wouldn't effect the colour in most work that I do. A red dust would unless the joints were either red or darker than red. I guess this has brought up the question of whether a red brick dust will act the same as a grey/buff brick dust.

I really think i'll stick with 1:2:9 mix or try to find some metakaolin. This brickdust stuff is too confusing unless it's speced.

I do find it very interesting though that fairly different brick colours can be achieved from the same clay depending on temperatures. I've always known about clinkers and Salmons but that's about it.

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