Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?

 
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Old 07-05-2018, 07:21 AM   #21
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


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Eh...9 yards ain't that big of a pour, especially with a power trowel.

I'd be more worried about getting a hot load, with an afternoon delivery from a company that's busier than s#!^.
Did the 9 yarder on Tuesday. No big deal there.

Today is the 15. I have a second finisher coming and 5 guys to place. Should go smooth enough, calling for rain right around that time so hopefully it brings some cloud cover with it to keep the trucks cooler.

No point in soaking the base since it all has poly under it anyway.

We're gonna get through it. I was sweating Tuesday, but it went fine. I have 300 gallons of water sitting there just incase it doesn't go fine and we have to do the old Italian spray and pray.
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Old 07-05-2018, 02:28 PM   #22
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


A good concrete job cost a whole lot of money,and a bad one costs even more. The steps in placing and finishing never change,just get accelerated a whole bunch as the temp. rises and even worse if it comes with a steady breeze. Adding water to the surface while finishing can be the kiss of death . It has a huge chance to cause scaling and dusting,which will be a never ending proposition. In other words,it is jackhammer time.

If you even have too "dash" a tad of water with a brush while troweling,something got out of place along the way. If "stand-by " water is part of the plan,another plan is needed. I have postponed more jobs in intense heat than I have moved forward with. The risk is hardly worth the reward. Concrete is just like meeting someone for the first time.......you never get a second chance at a first impression.

https://www.nrmca.org/aboutconcrete/cips/14p.pdf
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Old 07-05-2018, 06:13 PM   #23
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


I agree, some surface retarder would be more appropriate. I can't stand when the finishers start throwing water on the slabs.

I meet some guys that worked in Salt Lake City area and they were using a surface retarder and I had never seen anyone use that around here. I asked about it and one of the fellas said, "Man, there are 10 finishers in that can."

These guys were placing and finishing 60 yards a day with a crew of 5, 30 yards in the morning 30 yards after noon. Broom finish drive lanes in 100 degree heat. The pour never got away from them in the 2 weeks or so I was working that same site.
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Old 07-06-2018, 02:04 AM   #24
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


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I agree, some surface retarder would be more appropriate. I can't stand when the finishers start throwing water on the slabs.
Nor can I, and it's not part of the normal finishing operations except maybe a squirt or two on the last pass if a bug hole pops up when polishing.

However, I've seen more than one occasion where things rapidly went south and the day was salvaged with a brush and a bucket full of water, only one of my jobs, but multiple times for other companies.

One notable one is a time when the wrong mix was ordered, lots of air in it, the cheese kept peeling right off the top of the pizza and those guys were doing anything they could to get a finish on it, surprisingly they got it and turned it into a good finish.
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Old 07-06-2018, 02:10 AM   #25
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


Well, everything went fine. First truck was smooth as silk, good cool mix got it down fast.

Then the concrete company boned me, almost two hours between loads and got a cold joint right in the middle of things. He was exactly one hour later than the scheduled time, he was supposed to be there 45 minutes after the first truck, and we had the first one down and out of the way in 42 minutes from the time he wheeled in.

I managed to vibrate it back in and eventually blend it, but that strip was a pain right in the ass, plus the waiting between getting a finish on it. I had the first half finished and ready to seal while the other guy was just floating the second half for the second time.

We got it, and it looks good, but now I have to re think my saw cuts to accommodate where the joint is.
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Old 07-06-2018, 05:03 AM   #26
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


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It's gonna be hot this week, and I have to pour two days of it. Nothing huge, 9 yards and 14 yards. I can't get a first thing in the morning load either day though, and even being in full shade, I still get nervous about the trucks heating up when it's super warm out.

Anyone ever toss ice in the truck on site before mixing, it wouldn't take very long at all to get about 60 lbs in the top of the drum to get the temperature down a bit.

I'm just kind of brainstorming here since I like to avoid retarder whenever possible.

It might be a stupid idea.
The ready mix plants here, and some I have used in Texas, all have either a water chiller, or they have bagged ice available, or both.

It is common when the haul time is 20 minutes or more to have the plant operator ask if we want it iced down. Water is weighed at the plant, and if ice is used, then it is replacing the water, pound for pound. And many contractors do not like ad-mixes in concrete, like retarders or accelerators. since these can all change the finishing characteristics of the finished floor...

This is not the same as a water reducer we use in ICF wall and during pumping.
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Old 07-07-2018, 01:24 AM   #27
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


Lab grade work has the crete poured inside a temp and humidity control space....

You could start marketing yourself as "the pours "inside" concrete mason,a temporary Temp controlled shack, or even just a high end awning that allows you go in weather extremes and still produce very high end finishes with smaller crews/ or pour greater footage daily....

As to your dispatcher lying to you RE: delivery times, you need to go an honest redi-mix retailer, and let the old one know WHY you left for timelier pastures...

Why not offer to pay extra to open the plant an hour early, i.e. "Over" time for the operator and driver(s) ? Or setup your system to pour at low demand times of day?

If you do everything like everyone else....why would anyone pay YOU more $?
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:29 AM   #28
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


Definitely need a retarder not ice or water. Having feeble concrete structure isn't good for anyone.
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Old 07-13-2018, 05:44 PM   #29
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


The use of a hand held infrared thermometer would allow you to learn the difference in set times the delivery temperature makes, and allow you to man the pour with enough help for the finish needed...

By far the easiest, repeatable management tool would to pour half sized pour 2X a day...

Have an 'emergency' labor sharing gentlemen's agreement to allow your workers to "bail" out the competition and Vice Versa, to bail You out on a Hot load...

Hire some youngsters/semi retired or both( one to show how, one to DO) during the summer Heat.
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Old 07-13-2018, 09:46 PM   #30
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


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Originally Posted by NYCB View Post
Nor can I, and it's not part of the normal finishing operations except maybe a squirt or two on the last pass if a bug hole pops up when polishing.

However, I've seen more than one occasion where things rapidly went south and the day was salvaged with a brush and a bucket full of water, only one of my jobs, but multiple times for other companies.

One notable one is a time when the wrong mix was ordered, lots of air in it, the cheese kept peeling right off the top of the pizza and those guys were doing anything they could to get a finish on it, surprisingly they got it and turned it into a good finish.
Squirting water on the top is a good way to get some serious scaling.
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Old 07-14-2018, 09:25 AM   #31
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


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Definitely need a retarder not ice or water. Having feeble concrete structure isn't good for anyone.
Pardon?

Are you suggesting the somehow ice or chilled water in concrete changes the "structure" of the concrete? How so? I am ready to learn something new every day.

You understand retarders are a chemical, Right? You understand that water reducers are for reducing the amount of water and allowing the concrete to 'flow" like it would under a higher slump, right?

Now, testing has proven that concrete doesn't get "feeble" when using reducers or retarders, but some contractors, and engineers like concrete the old fashioned way.

When it is 100 degrees outside and we have to pour, it is nice to cool the mix down rather then have a "hot mud" issue. Ice, pound for pound substituted for water, or chilled water (same as batching concrete in winter) does not affect strength of concrete or make it "feeble".
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Old 07-14-2018, 09:34 AM   #32
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


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Squirting water on the top is a good way to get some serious scaling.

Every seminar or class I have taken sponsored by the ACA absolutely bashes anyone who 'blesses" the concrete with water, or God forbid, add water during a pour.

I asked one of the speakers, a guy who is an engineer, and very knowledgeable, if he ever had to actually place 3 or 4 inch concrete and finish it? Nope....just lab.

I knew a finisher that routinely told the driver to add "80", or half the water in the truck, giving him "soup". And one builder who witnessed this pulled a coffee can of the slop and sent it to Standard Testing. Refused to pay the concrete company, and raised hell to all who would listen. Believe it or not, 30 days later the sample busted at 2800 lbs. Not good enough, but at that time, code required us to have #2500 mix for footings and did not specify slab mix.

The builder paid for the concrete because the company told him when the truck back up to the forms, the finisher determined what to add...not the driver. The finisher was still pouring for this guy years later, and still ordering the water add to make it self leveling. This jurisdiction does not require a site inspector during the pour, and most inspectors I know would have not known the difference anyway.
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Old 07-14-2018, 10:39 AM   #33
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


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Every seminar or class I have taken sponsored by the ACA absolutely bashes anyone who 'blesses" the concrete with water, or God forbid, add water during a pour.

I asked one of the speakers, a guy who is an engineer, and very knowledgeable, if he ever had to actually place 3 or 4 inch concrete and finish it? Nope....just lab.

I knew a finisher that routinely told the driver to add "80", or half the water in the truck, giving him "soup". And one builder who witnessed this pulled a coffee can of the slop and sent it to Standard Testing. Refused to pay the concrete company, and raised hell to all who would listen. Believe it or not, 30 days later the sample busted at 2800 lbs. Not good enough, but at that time, code required us to have #2500 mix for footings and did not specify slab mix.

The builder paid for the concrete because the company told him when the truck back up to the forms, the finisher determined what to add...not the driver. The finisher was still pouring for this guy years later, and still ordering the water add to make it self leveling. This jurisdiction does not require a site inspector during the pour, and most inspectors I know would have not known the difference anyway.



All the batch plants in my neck of the woods have a distinct place on shipping ticket to record gallons of water added on site.......along with a disclaimer on ticket explaining the release of their liability for such actions. In other words,add water,you're on your own.

If you want to adjust the work-ability of their concrete,they are happy to do so with a plasticizer,add water,all bets are off.
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Old 07-14-2018, 10:48 AM   #34
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


don't forget the dry ice and liquid nitrogen...
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Old 07-14-2018, 11:16 AM   #35
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


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Every seminar or class I have taken sponsored by the ACA absolutely bashes anyone who 'blesses" the concrete with water, or God forbid, add water during a pour.

I asked one of the speakers, a guy who is an engineer, and very knowledgeable, if he ever had to actually place 3 or 4 inch concrete and finish it? Nope....just lab.

I knew a finisher that routinely told the driver to add "80", or half the water in the truck, giving him "soup". And one builder who witnessed this pulled a coffee can of the slop and sent it to Standard Testing. Refused to pay the concrete company, and raised hell to all who would listen. Believe it or not, 30 days later the sample busted at 2800 lbs. Not good enough, but at that time, code required us to have #2500 mix for footings and did not specify slab mix.

The builder paid for the concrete because the company told him when the truck back up to the forms, the finisher determined what to add...not the driver. The finisher was still pouring for this guy years later, and still ordering the water add to make it self leveling. This jurisdiction does not require a site inspector during the pour, and most inspectors I know would have not known the difference anyway.
That water created 11 cubic feet of voids. I'm sure there was no cracking at all!
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Old 07-14-2018, 12:01 PM   #36
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


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That water created 11 cubic feet of voids. I'm sure there was no cracking at all!



There is a distinct advantage to using ICF forms.......no one gets to see the quality of your concrete walls.
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Old 07-14-2018, 01:43 PM   #37
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


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There is a distinct advantage to using ICF forms.......no one gets to see the quality of your concrete walls.

I routinely ask for a 5 inch slump, and since we do vibrate, we do not have quality issues. I have photographs of every wall section exposed and as expected, they are tight. In other words, we are discussing two different types of work. I was pointing out the work of a specific "finisher" or flat work, and you are connecting ICF walls into that equation.

Adding water to concrete in ICFs is not a good plan for a few reasons, one which is increasing the pressure in the forms and actually causing a "lift" when pouring...or a form trying to act like a cork and lift, causing a blowout.

5 inches of slump, or a plasticizer, allows the concrete to "flow" in the forms, but does not delay the initial "set" time we need between lifts, or the depth of each pour.

I do not use ice or chilled water in ICFs because we pump at a given rate, and since we vibrate right behind the pour, I want no delays to set time.

In flat work, timing is everything. You work concrete when it is ready, on the "turn", not when you are ready.
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Old 07-16-2018, 07:21 AM   #38
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


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Squirting water on the top is a good way to get some serious scaling.
Ever have a load show up with lots of air in it that needs to be hard troweled?

It's either time to get squirty, or you end up with losing it.

A very important lesson learned there about communication with the batch plant.
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Old 07-16-2018, 07:29 AM   #39
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


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Every seminar or class I have taken sponsored by the ACA absolutely bashes anyone who 'blesses" the concrete with water, or God forbid, add water during a pour.

I asked one of the speakers, a guy who is an engineer, and very knowledgeable, if he ever had to actually place 3 or 4 inch concrete and finish it? Nope....just lab.

I knew a finisher that routinely told the driver to add "80", or half the water in the truck, giving him "soup". And one builder who witnessed this pulled a coffee can of the slop and sent it to Standard Testing. Refused to pay the concrete company, and raised hell to all who would listen. Believe it or not, 30 days later the sample busted at 2800 lbs. Not good enough, but at that time, code required us to have #2500 mix for footings and did not specify slab mix.

The builder paid for the concrete because the company told him when the truck back up to the forms, the finisher determined what to add...not the driver. The finisher was still pouring for this guy years later, and still ordering the water add to make it self leveling. This jurisdiction does not require a site inspector during the pour, and most inspectors I know would have not known the difference anyway.
Everyone that regularly does flat work has either seen someone deal with soup, or has dealt with it themselves, I once had a driver blow a fitting on his line and leak water into the drum the entire way to the site.

It was a small pad so I discharged it anyway, figuring I could rip it out easy enough if it failed.

Waited forever, got the trowel on it, marinated it in cure and seal then saw cut it the next morning.

That was almost a decade ago and the floor is still there doing it's job with no issues.

I have also seen some really good finishers turn what could have been a disaster into a good (not perfect, but good) finished product when given either a load of soup, or a hot load, or a load sent with air when it shouldn't have been.
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Old 07-16-2018, 05:33 PM   #40
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Re: Anyone Ever Add Ice To The Concrete Truck?


I have witnessed a lot of bad pours and bad concrete jobs you would swear were going to fail, and turned out fine. I have seen great floors, cut and finished to perfection, crack like an addict.

Sometimes, there seems to be no rhyme or reason.....

In my own observation, adding water to a 6 inch slump, give or take, and wetting the floor down do not have as much effect as the concrete from the plant...distance, temp, and how flat you start compared to trying to over work concrete with a power trowel all have a lot to do with quality floors.

The best I have run have one thing in common: Ride on troweling, and the floors were vibra-screeded. The worst have always been floated and then troweled flat with a walk behind, or knee boards and hand trowels. I don't care how good a finisher thinks he is...there is no way beyond a small floor that can be hand troweled flat.

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