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The 1,000 year house

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20K views 98 replies 17 participants last post by  wazez 
#1 ·
#6 ·
Yes there is. This project is in essence a continuation of his first project we examined on CT. called hopeforarchitecture. I talk with Clay about once a month or so,after mentioning there were not many posting with current project,he told me click on the connection to twitter on hope site.


Not too good explaining computer stuff,but here goes. Type in www.hopeforarchitecture.com go to bottom of page,at bottom click on blog on left,or twitter far right. The far right will show a ton more pictures than blog click. Hope this helps out.
 
#7 ·
Ha! Ha! I will pass that on,Clay has a good sense of humor and he will appreciate it. Tgeb was correct,we kind of tracked his first project on CT.back in 2012 & 13.

Talked with Clay Tue. or Wed. he is making headway,he got 35K brick laid last week with 6 masons in 5 days. The brick he is using are one of my favorites. They are a solid molded with frog from Old Va. brick from Salem Va.

Hope our friend Brickhook tunes in,the brick were made in his backyard. I think I will PM him and give him a heads up.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Compared to some Russian homes I have seen being built, it looks a little flimsy.

A lot of differences in the traditional details and prefernces, but the bone are the same.

In Russia, a common wall is 0.5 meter (20" thick made up of an 8" masonry exterior wall, 4" of foam insulation and an 8" interior masonry wall) that is usually plastered on the interior. The basement is built out of solid 20" thick concrete blocks with a 20"x 40" or 80" face. No wood in the structure, but 10" concrete plank for floors with wood flooring over the concrete.
 
#9 ·
There is a picture of a note one of the kids wrote about the honey bees vanishing. It is a major problem and it is caused by the pesticides that the gmo crows actually grow in their cells or some crap like that. If the honey bees die off pretty much all living things on earth die with them.

Thats all.

Of and how are people getting solid bricks for .30? Were paying about .80.
 
#11 ·
There is a picture of a note one of the kids wrote about the honey bees vanishing. It is a major problem and it is caused by the pesticides that the gmo crows actually grow in their cells or some crap like that. If the honey bees die off pretty much all living things on earth die with the

.


You are correct about the bees dying being big trouble. Last year in the paper I read they think genetically modified crops (whatever that means) could possibly be part of the trouble for the bees. Wonder if eating that stuff is good for us ??:blink:
 
#16 ·
If I could buy those bricks for 30c a piece I'd never want to install anything else.

35k brick in 5 days with 6 installers, damn they're moving.


On a side note,without discrediting them,on mass walls the count goes up. The center wythe fill in is part of the reason.As our friend from the U.K. (Stuart45) said once,over there they call it Larrying in.


I could state the numbers we got production wise in the '70's on some outrageously wide mass walls but everyone would call it a fish tale.:laughing:
 
#17 · (Edited)
Oh I know that on a triple wythe wall the centre flies in, then often gets cut @ the tie courses cause it's too high. Often the inner wall goes really quick too if it's going to get plastered, still 7000 bricks a day between 6 installers is pretty good, maybe even more so for the guys mixing, that's over 50 batches a day!

C'mon throw some numbers out, I wanna hear. Cavity walls or multi wythe brick walls?
 
#18 ·
C'mon throw some numbers out, I wanna hear. Cavity walls or multi wythe brick walls?


Here is the story. Winter of '78-'79 working in Chicago,brutal winter lots of snow. A hide processor at 42nd and Marshfield owns a 5 story building with walls abutting their single story building. They were only using the first story of the five story building,paying high property taxes for more building then they were using. Single story building had 125' clear span bowstring trusses. Huge snow collapses trusses,reason being,trusses were rotted where they entered pockets in brick walls.


While we brought in crane to lift debris over single story walls,light bulb comes on in owners head. Wreck top four floors of five story,thereby reducing tax bill significantly. Used a clam shell bucket on crane to "bite" off tops of walls once brought down close to top of first floor level,walls needed obviously to be leveled out. Cranes are not too neat.:laughing:


Bottom line,those two abutting walls were very close to six feet in width ! Three feet each building. We set scaffolding on both sides of wall,ran up the two outer wythes to header high. The scaffolding was a section above the masons work platform. Tenders shoveled mud into inner wythes. Masons kept their trowels on mud boards,placed brick on open arm , one in hand,rest on arm from wrist to elbow and "shoved" them "home" in the wet mud.


That production hit over 2,500 brick a day per mason.It did take a heck of a wide custom made metal coping to cover the top of that wall.:laughing:
 
#20 ·
Interesting house fjn. I've built quite a few walls that thick, but never used that type of bond. Normally headers and stretchers every course or Flemish. Seen a bond known as Clip bond on a really old property.
View attachment 109120



Hello Stuart, That bond is referred to as American bond,very prevalent in my neck of the woods also.The headers and stretchers every course is definitely of U.K. origin. With the direct U.K. influence as the country was settled English bond as it is called here was used in Williamsburg Va. up to the water table,then it was a switch to Flemish bond.
 
#21 ·
Just a bit of Chicago masonry history / trivia. In October of 1871 Chicago was devastated by a fire that burned for several days and consumed much of the city. As a result of that fire,Chicago implemented some of the most stringent fire and building codes of any metropolitan city. With those strict fire codes came an explosion in the need for brick production. By the late 1800's to early 1900's there were 27 plants (mainly south and west) of the city winning the blue / gray clay that produced the bricks which became known as "Chicago Commons".

The last such plant was closed by the EPA in 1981. Prior to its closing,American Brick Co. was burning around 2 million brick in each of its firings in an antiquated method called a scove kiln or clamp.

One can only imagine the almost insatiable appetite Chicago once had to require 27 such plants to meet the production needs of the city. Chicago was built up predominately of stout 1 story brick homes with only a double wythe or 8" wall. The nature of those walls, with the usage of Lime mortar created a wall that easily took on rain in storms, the lime mortar allowed that water to "leave" the wall just as easily with no moisture problems incurred.


The 1,000 yr. house with its triple wythe walls and lime based mortar would be expected to "breathe" as easily or perhaps more so. Reason being,the brick produced by the supplier Old Virginia Brick is in my assessment a much superior product to the typical Chicago Commons.


Many buildings in Chicago,especially those of more than one story opted for 12" or greater walls. Possibly the reason being,engineering as a profession did not hit its stride until the more recent past. With that said,empirical design was the rule of thumb. That resulted in the walls of the Monadnock Building built with brick walls six feet in width.


Here is a connection to that building. http://www.monadnockbuilding.com/history.htm
 
#23 ·
The last such plant was closed by the EPA in 1981. Prior to its closing,American Brick Co. was burning around 2 million brick in each of its firings in an antiquated method calledChicago was built up predominately of stout 1 story brick homes with only a double wythe or 8" wall. The nature of those walls, with the usage of Lime mortar created a wall that easily took on rain in storms, the lime mortar allowed that water to "leave" the wall just as easily with no moisture problems incurred.
Much of our Victorian housing stock is made up of solid 9 inch brick wall like those. The ones near the coast were prone to damp due to wind driven rain, so the cavity wall was introduced to some in the mid 1800's.
By the mid 1930's most houses had 2 skins of brickwork with a 2-3 inch air gap.
There are still 1,000's of 9 inch solid houses being lived in, although this winter has been the wettest on record, with loads of wind driven rain in areas not normally affected.
The result is that many people have been having damp problems never seen before.
 
#31 · (Edited)
FJN, "Chicago commons" are generally the backup wyths of the much harder baked and colored/textured "face" brick Wythe. They were never meant to be used for exterior veneer work in Northern climes. During demo, the hard baked face brick were sorted out and sold for much more then basic useless softer back brick in modern walls, one story walls under a 24"-32" soffit may last 50years, chimneys typically are failing in less than 20 years from frost damage to the porous units.

Stuart/Fjn, What you are referring to as "clip" bond was actually called "half clipped RAKE bond" the half clip referring to the raked units being clipped on alternating sides to save some hammer time (one less clipped corner by not clipping a pocket into both face Wyths every course) The Rake bond was used largely because the face brick available from Clamp Kilns rarely had usable Quoin faces for headers, modern style continuous floe kilns allow the production of brick with 3 out of 6 faces with matching color and texture...On very thick walls the center wyths were sometimes laid Herringbone style, Rake bond being a subset of herringbone bonds...

No brick building was insurable that wasn't built with a minimum % of true headers, many times a large portion of apparent headers were actually 1/2 bats to speed production and use otherwise useless material, too few actual header brick could lead to catastrophic failure of whole wyths, sometimes killing bystanders or firemen during a fire.
Stuart45, love the wall tie collection

 
#32 ·
FJN,
Stuart/Fjn, What you are referring to as "clip" bond was actually called "half clipped RAKE bond" the half clip referring to the raked units being clipped on alternating sides to save some hammer time (one less clipped corner by not clipping a pocket into both face Wyths every course)


It may have been called many things, I have a reprint of a book from the 1920's that calls it the secret bond. Different areas have always had different terms for building styles.
 
#33 ·
Dom-mas, While many objects and methods are known locally with local vernacular-names and terms, For nearly everything though there exists a word that is used by all informed practitioners to describe the idea or object, Nomenclature.

As modern masons, we can use hundreds of products that weren't availiable and whole fields of masonry have been rendered economically obsolete by technology and massive regulatory burdens

I referrenced my grandpa's 1924 Audels' Masons and Builders Guide, Volume One, for the exact info on the rake bond. literate masons coast to coast would have known what a half clipped rake bond 3 wyth wall was, Secret Bond, not so much...
Imagine a contract that called out " and Secret bond to be used..."
I'd call it the "Carpal tunnel bond" if I had to clip almost every brick I laid...

The "chicago commons" info is collected by actually observing the Demo of Late Nineteenth, early multiple wyth laid in LIME mortar commericial buildings here and in Chicago... and fixing many chimneys built out of the inappropriate for exterior masonry material.

I'd testify to the Insurance requirements driving early building codes, many relating to need to protect firefighters as they attempt to keep fires from spreading and civil law forcing building owners to build safer structures, but can't recall a primary source.

I'm enjoying the Thaw.
 
#36 ·
Dom-mas, While many objects and methods are known locally with local vernacular-names and terms, For nearly everything though there exists a word that is used by all informed practitioners to describe the idea or object, Nomenclature.

As modern masons, we can use hundreds of products that weren't availiable and whole fields of masonry have been rendered economically obsolete by technology and massive regulatory burdens

I referrenced my grandpa's 1924 Audels' Masons and Builders Guide, Volume One, for the exact info on the rake bond. literate masons coast to coast would have known what a half clipped rake bond 3 wyth wall was, Secret Bond, not so much...
Imagine a contract that called out " and Secret bond to be used..."
I'd call it the "Carpal tunnel bond" if I had to clip almost every brick I laid...
you reference one book, and say it was the book of literate masons coast to coast. Which coast? There are other countries, with much older terms as Stuart has pointed out. The book I'm referencing predates Audels by a decade. It actually calls it the diagonal secret bond to differentiate it from a header secret bond and says it's exact reason for being was aesthetic. Intereting that the buildings that I've worked on that have the same bond are 40 years older than Audel's book and use facing brick that is good 4 sides.

There are other books that are equally old and called it the "hidden bond". Why you feel it is so insane for an architect to spec "hidden" or "secret" bond is beyond me. But many of your opinions which you seem to feel are fact are beyond me. You are a closed minded fool in my opinion, never wanting to learn from anyone elses experiences. You seem to believe you are the only one with any knowledge on this forum....you are totally 100% incorrect.
 
#39 ·
Stuart45, If I was to ask you what a three wyth wall with the interior and exterior wyths of brick clipped on both interior corners to receive the center wyth bonding brick laid at a 45 degree angle to the wall faces into the pockets created by the aforementioned clips? I'd call it a rake bond, every other rake would be laid at the opposite 45 degree angle to brace the wall against loads from both directions.
Second 3 wyth wall has a 45 degree angled bricks, but to save labor only 3 clips per unit are needed (two creating a pocket in one face wyth, the third clip off the raked unit allowing it to fit against the UNCLIPPED wyth... I'd call a half clipped rake bond.....which would have four different bonds before repeating...the first course right hand 45 angle, clipped raked brick end against the interior wall, second left hand 45 angle, again the interior, the third and fourth raked bricks clipped abutting the exterior wyth....

Dom-mas, I might be a close minded fool, but I know in these examples my opinions more closely match reality. I still think you are mis labelling bonds, I was just trying to share what I know, If you are sure your right, why do care what I say? The truth will out. Some one published some thing, its gotta be true...

The manufacture of Face brick lead to the use of "hidden bonds".

There several "hidden or secret" bonds that were used, wouldn't the masters of their craft have different names for each one used?


Fjn, I suggest you check your facts, I''m sure some poorly built or cheap skates used common brick on the street side of some buildings in Chicago, but most used face brick for added style and tighter joints, Yes commons could be used indoor parts of Party walls, but only poorer grades of workmanship would lay them exposed to weather, back up brick used externally wouldn't have last 80-120years of Midwest winters. If the average building demoed had 20 inch thick walls, 80 precent would be back up commons....What I am calling Chicago commons were never intended for use exposed to the weather, tens of millions were sold for inappropriate uses.

Yes, some common brick were made to be exposed to the weather, they are much less "common" than the back up species.

As an aside, as the average age of the demoed buildings follows the passing of time, fewer buildings used lime based mortars which allows easy removal of the old mortars-Portland based mortars render used bricks uneconomically recyclable.

If you work union, You might have worked some of my family...they are even smarter than me. Haven't been to see the relatives lately, but I'm thinking history of Chicago common bricks hasn't changed much...

If I lived across the street from MIT would I be any smarter?

FJN, going forwards, I'll know that you think you know everything regarding your posts and have no desire to learn otherwise, I'll avoid popping any of your bubbles. If you can show me my errors , please do so.
 
#40 ·
Stuart45, If I was to ask you what a three wyth wall with the interior and exterior wyths of brick clipped on both interior corners to receive the center wyth bonding brick laid at a 45 degree angle to the wall faces into the pockets created by the aforementioned clips? I'd call it a rake bond, every other rake would be laid at the opposite 45 degree angle to brace the wall against loads from both directions.
Second 3 wyth wall has a 45 degree angled bricks, but to save labor only 3 clips per unit are needed (two creating a pocket in one face wyth, the third clip off the raked unit allowing it to fit against the UNCLIPPED wyth... I'd call a half clipped rake bond.....which would have four different bonds before repeating...the first course right hand 45 angle, clipped raked brick end against the interior wall, second left hand 45 angle, again the interior, the third and fourth raked bricks clipped abutting the exterior wyth....
None of this really affects what this bond has been called in the UK for hundreds of years. It's always been called Clip bond here. Monk bond wasn't invented by the Monks, but it's still called that.
The bond you call American bond is known as English garden wall bond here. Running bond is known as Stretcher bond.
The names are only correct when used in their own countries.
 
#41 ·
Your opinions more closely match reality? I've see that bond called both the secret bond and the hidden bond in more than one book by more than one author. If you want to rely on your one book, I'm sure it's a great one I really do, go ahead.

There is a thread in another part of the forum about what people call gable returns. Some call them cornice returns. Are they wrong? Who says? I DO agree that there should be more consensus on certain terms, but when styles develop in different areas there CANNOT be one single name. Sure for architectural details that have been around since Palladio we might decide to use whatever he calls it, but for most everything else we need to be able to say it is such and such AKA, or variously known as... Keep believing your way is the only way, doesn't bother me at all. I will continue to learn, you will be stuck with whatever "knowledge" you had when your mind shut like a trap.

What does "more closely match reality" mean anyway? There is only one reality and that reality is that there are many names for many things

Question. Is it a Cougar, or a Puma or a Mountain Lion
 
#44 ·
Actually, in regards to the Chicago commons, the same brick were used for inner and outer wythes, HOWEVER, they were sorted into buffs and salmons, with the buffs being used on the exterior and the salmons used on the interior surface and interior wythes. The salmons are softer and did not achieve the same temps as the buffs, but they were all fired at the same time in the same kilns (or clamps).
 
#54 ·
"Before irregularities became coveted architectural effects, common bricks were a cheap and abundant resource--a prosaic building material for places generally obscured from street traffic: side and back walls, for example, chimney flues, and structural support behind facades. People sank their money into the more decorative "face brick," which tended to have a cookie-cutter uniformity and was shipped in from other areas. "

From here:

http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/1031.html

Back in the day they sorted the brick, either at the plant or at the site (most likely). I have seen too many pictures of wrecked walls with the exterior buff and the interiors pink for it to be a coincidence. And, as noted above, more expensive face brick were often used on the front of the building.
That isn't limited to Chicago by any means either. The salmons which tend towards either pink or orange have been used as inner wythes all over the world. The clinkers are usually used in inner wythes as well because of their weird shape. I think it was Fundi who said though that a full 60% of his bricks were good hard face bricks, but hopefully he'll chime in as probably the only person here to fire bricks in a kiln regularly
 
#47 ·
Fjn, I suggest you check your facts, I''m sure some poorly built or cheap skates used common brick on the street side of some buildings

FJN, going forwards, I'll know that you think you know everything regarding your posts and have no desire to learn otherwise, I'll avoid popping any of your bubbles. If you can show me my errors , please do so.[/QUOTE]



Check my facts?????? I'll tell you what,fly into Chicago's Mid -Way airport, I will pick you up, if I cannot show you 1,000 buildings within the first 1 hour of your feet on the ground with common brick as the outer wythe I will buy you lunch. Better yet,I will buy you lunch regardless and pay your airfare to boot.
 
#48 · (Edited)
Fjn, I suggest you check your facts, I''m sure some poorly built or cheap skates used common brick on the street side of some buildings

FJN, going forwards, I'll know that you think you know everything regarding your posts and have no desire to learn otherwise, I'll avoid popping any of your bubbles. If you can show me my errors , please do so.


Check my facts?????? I'll tell you what,fly into Chicago's Mid -Way airport, I will pick you up, if I cannot show you 1,000 buildings within the first 1 hour of your feet on the ground with common brick as the outer wythe I will buy you lunch. Better yet,I will buy you lunch regardless and pay your airfare to boot.[/QUOTE]


Don't suppose that offer applies to me and the family does it fjn;)
ps. Just a single ticket for my wife.
Found this article about the overcoat/raincoat effect.
www.outhaus.ie/file-downloads/Rainpenetration.pdf
 
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