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Old 05-21-2017, 07:05 PM   #81
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Re: Finance


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You and I seem to be the same school of thought. I like the cash available mostly.

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I think we are close to the same age as well. Its the time to get things in place if you are going to. Between age, interest rates and a few other things going on in the economy. Trying to make the best of it while I can. I hope to turn into California as I go.
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Old 05-21-2017, 07:07 PM   #82
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Re: Finance


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I think we are close to the same age as well. Its the time to get things in place if you are going to. Between age, interest rates and a few other things going on in the economy. Trying to make the best of it while I can. I hope to turn into California as I go.
Dido except for the house shoes.....

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Old 05-21-2017, 07:54 PM   #83
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Re: Finance


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Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
New or used (I prefer used), pay cash. Same with tools.

A loan is an added risk.
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Originally Posted by Californiadecks View Post
Don't pay the bank and see what that does to you. Its an absolute risk. Especially to a sole proprietor.

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I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I thought of a good analogy in regards to risk of financing. Think of the housing bubble, people bought houses for 100 grand, next thing you know they are worth 50 grand....but still owe 100. So you just stop paying and the bank forecloses and they are stuck with a worthless house.

Who had more risk?

Same with a car loan.
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Old 05-21-2017, 07:55 PM   #84
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Re: Finance


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I think we are close to the same age as well. Its the time to get things in place if you are going to. Between age, interest rates and a few other things going on in the economy. Trying to make the best of it while I can. I hope to turn into California as I go.
You better marry a woman with a good job if you want to be like Cali.
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Old 05-21-2017, 09:24 PM   #85
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Re: Finance


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I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I thought of a good analogy in regards to risk of financing. Think of the housing bubble, people bought houses for 100 grand, next thing you know they are worth 50 grand....but still owe 100. So you just stop paying and the bank forecloses and they are stuck with a worthless house.

Who had more risk?

Same with a car loan.
Actually not, home mortage loans are non-recourse - they can take the house and that's it. Loans like car loans they can take the car, sell it for dirt, and take you to court for the difference.

That's why it's better to sell the car, even if it's upside down, rather than let it get repo'd.
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Old 05-21-2017, 09:27 PM   #86
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Re: Finance


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Originally Posted by Inner10 View Post
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I thought of a good analogy in regards to risk of financing. Think of the housing bubble, people bought houses for 100 grand, next thing you know they are worth 50 grand....but still owe 100. So you just stop paying and the bank forecloses and they are stuck with a worthless house.

Who had more risk?

Same with a car loan.


Now you're not only without a car or house, but they can go after you for the difference between what they financed and what they were able to auction it off for, kill your credit so your next foray into financing is even more risky at higher interest rates, add a repo to your credit, and potential judgement, and depending on how you left it, you may be open to having to pay income taxes as well...

Real estate has historically been a good bet over the long-term, but that aside, look at your scenario if you paid cash for the car or cash for an investment house... you'd not only still have both but be in a better position to recover from it... used cars generally go up in value during tough periods because banks aren't lending as much or are much more stringent on lending and the inventory is tight...

So who ended up carrying more risk and who was actually affected more?...

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Old 05-21-2017, 09:30 PM   #87
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Re: Finance


Quote:
Originally Posted by Inner10 View Post
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I thought of a good analogy in regards to risk of financing. Think of the housing bubble, people bought houses for 100 grand, next thing you know they are worth 50 grand....but still owe 100. So you just stop paying and the bank forecloses and they are stuck with a worthless house.



Who had more risk?



Same with a car loan.


If I pay cash for a car and the economy tanks, nothing happens. I keep my credit worthiness and if **** really hit the fan I can sell it. That's a whole lot better then losing your future borrowing leverage and having as judgement against you. Or worse bankruptcy.


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Old 05-21-2017, 10:06 PM   #88
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Re: Finance


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Actually not, home mortage loans are non-recourse - they can take the house and that's it. Loans like car loans they can take the car, sell it for dirt, and take you to court for the difference.

That's why it's better to sell the car, even if it's upside down, rather than let it get repo'd.
In Canada they are recourse, I think only Alberta has non-recourse. Didn't realize it was different for the US, do you guys have to purchase mortgage insurance?

Here they are recourse, but if you can't put 20% down you have to buy insurance.

Still doesn't change the fact that the bank is taking the risk, even with recourse they have a legal battle they have to fight and finance.

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Originally Posted by KAP View Post


Now you're not only without a car or house, but they can go after you for the difference between what they financed and what they were able to auction it off for, kill your credit so your next foray into financing is even more risky at higher interest rates, add a repo to your credit, and potential judgement, and depending on how you left it, you may be open to having to pay income taxes as well...

Real estate has historically been a good bet over the long-term, but that aside, look at your scenario if you paid cash for the car or cash for an investment house... you'd not only still have both but be in a better position to recover from it... used cars generally go up in value during tough periods because banks aren't lending as much or are much more stringent on lending and the inventory is tight...

So who ended up carrying more risk and who was actually affected more?...
It's still the lender that carries more risk, you could take your money and the car and head to the Turks and Caicos leaving them high and dry.

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Originally Posted by Californiadecks View Post
If I pay cash for a car and the economy tanks, nothing happens. I keep my credit worthiness and if **** really hit the fan I can sell it. That's a whole lot better then losing your future borrowing leverage and having as judgement against you. Or worse bankruptcy.


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If the economy tanks and you just spent all your money on a new car you are broke with a new car you have to sell or else you can't eat, paybills etc.

If the economy tanks and you financed a car you still have all the cash on hand, but have to make the monthly payments. So for the next few years you can still survive, pay bills, choose to sell the car if things don't recover.

Which is a better position to be in? Honestly?
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:14 PM   #89
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Re: Finance


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In Canada they are recourse, I think only Alberta has non-recourse. Didn't realize it was different for the US, do you guys have to purchase mortgage insurance?



Here they are recourse, but if you can't put 20% down you have to buy insurance.



Still doesn't change the fact that the bank is taking the risk, even with recourse they have a legal battle they have to fight and finance.







It's still the lender that carries more risk, you could take your money and the car and head to the Turks and Caicos leaving them high and dry.







If the economy tanks and you just spent all your money on a new car you are broke with a new car you have to sell or else you can't eat, paybills etc.



If the economy tanks and you financed a car you still have all the cash on hand, but have to make the monthly payments. So for the next few years you can still survive, pay bills, choose to sell the car if things don't recover.



Which is a better position to be in? Honestly?


This is where your argument falls flat. If the economy tanks I would've never spent all my money on a car. It's not even close to a life changing purchase. That's not how I make purchases. If the economy tanks and my car is what sends me over the top, my problem isn't the car or paying cash for it. The problem is a fundamental one.

Money does not solve money problems. And loans are no exception.


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Old 05-21-2017, 10:20 PM   #90
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Re: Finance


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This is where your argument falls flat. If the economy tanks I would've never spent all my money on a car. It's not even close to a life changing purchase. That's not how I make purchases. If the economy tanks and my car is what sends me over the top, my problem isn't the car or paying cash for it. The problem is a fundamental one.

Money does not solve money problems. And loans are no exception.


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Mike, I simplify scenarios to explain them easier, I'm not saying you will spend your last dollar on a new car.

This is like trying to explain the Monty Hall probability to a class of 5th graders.

The entire point I'm trying to make is in a scenerio of lending/borrowing money the lion's share of the risk is held by the LENDER not the BORROWER.

But no one seems to agree with me...
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:32 PM   #91
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Re: Finance


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Mike, I simplify scenarios to explain them easier, I'm not saying you will spend your last dollar on a new car.



This is like trying to explain the Monty Hall probability to a class of 5th graders.



The entire point I'm trying to make is in a scenerio of lending/borrowing money the lion's share of the risk is held by the LENDER not the BORROWER.



But no one seems to agree with me...


You are assuming the money is the only risk. My credit worthiness means more to me than the money. As with most people, hence the reason most pay there bills.




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Old 05-21-2017, 10:43 PM   #92
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Re: Finance


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Mike, I simplify scenarios to explain them easier, I'm not saying you will spend your last dollar on a new car.



This is like trying to explain the Monty Hall probability to a class of 5th graders.



The entire point I'm trying to make is in a scenerio of lending/borrowing money the lion's share of the risk is held by the LENDER not the BORROWER.



But no one seems to agree with me...


If there was any doubt in your mind that I'm asshole, I hope I put that to rest.


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Old 05-21-2017, 11:02 PM   #93
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Re: Finance


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You are assuming the money is the only risk. My credit worthiness means more to me than the money. As with most people, hence the reason most pay there bills.
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Why do you care about your credit you don't use it, cash man.

I'm not speaking to your personal situation, you pay your bills, doesn't matter if you finance or pay cash you'd pay regardless.

I'm speaking globally. Sure the person risks their future credit, if they don't pay, but that's in their hands, the lender can't stick his hand in the borrowers pocket and take the money, they are at their mercy...hence they hold the risk.
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Old 05-21-2017, 11:09 PM   #94
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Re: Finance


I utilize my credit for many things. Everything under the sun requires a credit check. What I don't do is pay interested on credit if I can help it.

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Old 05-21-2017, 11:16 PM   #95
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I utilize my credit for many things. Everything under the sun requires a credit check. What I don't do is pay interested on credit if I can help it.
That's valid, lots of employers now do mandatory credit checks on potential hires for entry level positions.
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Old 05-21-2017, 11:30 PM   #96
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That's valid, lots of employers now do mandatory credit checks on potential hires for entry level positions.


Which isn't really the right thing to do considering the reason their score is probably low is because they need a job.


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Old 05-22-2017, 06:58 AM   #97
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Re: Finance


This guy says get out of cash. I don't believe that's a wise move for contractors tho.

http://dailywealth.co/reclusive.html...Out+Of+Cash%22
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Old 05-22-2017, 09:11 AM   #98
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Re: Finance


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Still doesn't change the fact that the bank is taking the risk, even with recourse they have a legal battle they have to fight and finance.
Theoretically banks shoot for risk adjusted returns. That's a combination of % down and interest rate. The borrower can lose the full value of the car, but the lender can only lose a portion of that.

Credit consumers and credit providers operate on very different parts of the "gambler's ruin" problem.
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Old 05-22-2017, 07:18 PM   #99
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In Canada they are recourse, I think only Alberta has non-recourse. Didn't realize it was different for the US, do you guys have to purchase mortgage insurance?

Here they are recourse, but if you can't put 20% down you have to buy insurance.

Still doesn't change the fact that the bank is taking the risk, even with recourse they have a legal battle they have to fight and finance.
So the HO puts down 20%, the house value drops 50%, and the bank can either go after you for the 10% difference along with any lawyer, late and collection fees, but you may also be subject to IRS income taxes. If you have a non-recourse mortgage, the bank can only have the mortgage or the house, but if you have kids in college or getting ready for college, you're potentially locked out of PLUS student loans...

Now that initial 20% is also not the only money the HO would lose... they would lose any additional principal they would have paid up to that point, and the bank gets to KEEP ALL THE INTEREST they accrued up to that point... not to mention the HO would ALSO lose the MAJORITY of the money they paid in real estate taxes...

The bank has many avenues to get their money back... the HO GIVES UP the money they have in it, never mind all the other negative items already discussed (i.e. - credit, foreclosure, IRS exposure, judgements, collections, etc.)... it may be different in Canada, but rentals generally require a credit check...

Let's look at a real world scenario... The average home in the USA is around $200K... let's say you're only 5 years into a 30-year mortgage... here's how the numbers play out


HOMEOWNER
20% down payment = $40K
Total Interest paid to bank in 5 years = $35K
Total Principal Paid to bank in 5 years = $14K
Real Estate Taxes (vary by state) = $X,X X X.00
$46K (difference of original mortgage of $160K - $14K paid in principal) PLUS costs they go after HO to collect = $46K
TOTAL DEFINITE HOMEOWNER LOSS = $89K + whatever real estate taxes paid (bringing it over $90K)
TOTAL POTENTIAL HOMEOWNER LOSS (assuming bank collects) = $135K + costs

BANK
$200K drops 50% in value in a market crash = $100k
Total actual bank loss assuming they could not collect from HO and did not hold onto house while market recovers = $46K

So if a HO walks away, they DEFINITELY lose over $90K and potentially up to $135K plus costs should the bank be able to collect, and gets all the associated negative issues outline above to boot, and the banks actual losses are at $11K (after accounting for down payment, interest and principal paid by HO in 5 years) and they still have a house which they can mortgage all over again even at the 50% value... the HO has NOTHING and loses EVERYTHING PLUS in that real life scenario...

So how does the BANK carry more risk than the HO?

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Old 05-22-2017, 07:31 PM   #100
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Re: Finance


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So the HO puts down 20%, the house value drops 50%, and the bank can either go after you for the 10% difference along with any lawyer, late and collection fees, but you may also be subject to IRS income taxes. If you have a non-recourse mortgage, the bank can only have the mortgage or the house, but if you have kids in college or getting ready for college, you're potentially locked out of PLUS student loans...

Now that initial 20% is also not the only money the HO would lose... they would lose any additional principal they would have paid up to that point, and the bank gets to KEEP ALL THE INTEREST they accrued up to that point... not to mention the HO would ALSO lose the MAJORITY of the money they paid in real estate taxes...

The bank has many avenues to get their money back... the HO GIVES UP the money they have in it, never mind all the other negative items already discussed (i.e. - credit, foreclosure, IRS exposure, judgements, collections, etc.)... it may be different in Canada, but rentals generally require a credit check...

Let's look at a real world scenario... The average home in the USA is around $200K... let's say you're only 5 years into a 30-year mortgage... here's how the numbers play out


HOMEOWNER
20% down payment = $40K
Total Interest paid to bank in 5 years = $35K
Total Principal Paid to bank in 5 years = $14K
Real Estate Taxes (vary by state) = $X,X X X.00
$46K (difference of original mortgage of $160K - $14K paid in principal) PLUS costs they go after HO to collect = $46K
TOTAL DEFINITE HOMEOWNER LOSS = $89K + whatever real estate taxes paid (bringing it over $90K)
TOTAL POTENTIAL HOMEOWNER LOSS (assuming bank collects) = $135K + costs

BANK
$200K drops 50% in value in a market crash = $100k
Total actual bank loss assuming they could not collect from HO and did not hold onto house while market recovers = $46K

So if a HO walks away, they DEFINITELY lose over $90K and potentially up to $135K plus costs should the bank be able to collect, and gets all the associated negative issues outline above to boot, and the banks actual losses are at $11K (after accounting for down payment, interest and principal paid by HO in 5 years) and they still have a house which they can mortgage all over again even at the 50% value... the HO has NOTHING and loses EVERYTHING PLUS in that real life scenario...

So how does the BANK carry more risk than the HO?


My head hurts


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