Steel building/insulation - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Bradracer18 · 08-19-2006, 10:40 AM

Hey guys, we are going to build a new building on our land for show cattle. It will be 20' x 40'(on a concrete slab) The building will be wooden framed, with steel on the outside and inside. I'll be building most of it, with some help from my dad(I'm only 21). I think I know how to do most of it, but I've got a few questions. First, How do we decide what pitch(rafters) to go with(is there a difference in cost?)?? I was thinking a 3/12. Next, we want to insulate the inside real well, as it will be heated and airconditioned. What/how do you suggest doing this?? Will I need to deviate how I build it to accomidate the insulation? Most of these buildings do not have "studs" like in a house, they just run 2x6's flat(on the outside of the posts) to hold the posts in place and square/plum. So with that in mind, I'm not sure how to attach insulation. I've also thought of blowing it in(as we will be inclosing the ceiling too). If I go this route, how do I keep it in(plastic?)?? Of course, cost is always a factor, so please keep that in mind. Thank you and feel free to add any additional info.

Thanks,
Brad

maj · 08-19-2006, 11:07 AM

What I've done for insulated pole sheds is fasten 2x6's sideways (flat) in between the 6x6 poles instead of the 2x girts on the outside of the poles. This way you can still fasten the steel vertical on both outside and inside using the 2x6's as nailers for both sides. Space the 2x6's 24" O.C. and use 6" x 23 1/2" fiberglass batts for insulation.

For the roof..... space your trusses so they sit in a notch at the top of each pole, fasten securely with 40d pole barn spikes or GRK structural lags. Then use saddle hangers to set 2x6 purlins in for the roof steel.The 2x6 purlins go between the trusses. For the ceiling you use joist hangers to set 2x6 nailers in for the ceiling steel (or whatever you plan on using). The roof purlins can go 36" on center, while the ceiling nailers will be 24" O.C. so you can insulate with 10" x 23 1/2" fiberglass batts.

Bradracer18 · 08-19-2006, 01:11 PM

Ok, so for the nailers on the walls....I'll put the 2x6's in flat, so it would look like a ladder(wide), is that correct?? If so, do I need to put 2' boards inbetween these to keep them strait and to help tie into??

I understand everything about the roof. Just a few more questions. How big of a pitch do you suggest? How many rafters(I was thinking as many as poles as I have)?? Also, how far do you space the poles apart(and do I use 6x6's...was thinking 8')??? And, how far into the ground do I put the poles(and do I set them with concrete or anything)??

One more thing, If I want to put in some doors(large sliding/track doors...maybe 8' wide).....will I need to put poles in on each side of the doors too?? I am also wanting to put in a walk in door(36" max)....so will I need a pole on the other side of that too?? These doors will probably be placed with one side next to a post.

Thanks a ton, I appreciate everything!!!!
Brad

**joasis** · 08-19-2006, 01:50 PM

What maj is describing is like looking at a standard framed wall, only rotated 90 degrees so it goes between the wooden collumns (poles). As to the rafters, you will need engineered trusses, keeping in mind that you will have a ceiling load, probably 3 lbs. per sq/ft, as well as your live and dead load on the top side. I would edge the purlins, same way for the wall girts...never lay 2X's flat on top if you can avoid it. You can also do a building envelope with "double bubble" type insulation, and then use standard fiberglass as batts to attain the insulation value you need. You can get a truss dealer (your local lumber yard) to spec the trusses you need.

On a 20 X 40, I would do collumns on 10' centers, trusses placed with collumns. This would give you 4 bays, with 5 trusses and 10 collumns. Keep in mind no matter the pitch, which on a 20 wide is not a big deal, you will have to adapt insulation since you will not have girts to pocket batts in.

On the door question, you know sliding doors are not very tight, with regards to air, I would suggest if you are going to all the trouble for a heated and cooled building, you consider commercial insulated roll up doors...and yes, you will need collumns (poles) on either side of each framed opening.
Good luck.

mdshunk · 08-19-2006, 01:55 PM

I looked into having a pole barn type building built for me. As this type of construction is not covered by the IRC or the IBC, I was told that I'd need a full set of prints with an engineer's seal and his seal on several different detail pages. I had intended to have some telephone poles milled into 8x8's (or larger), as they are already treated better than PT lumber. I was told that I would need someone to grade stamp these also if they were to be considered structural buliding material.

Any of you all face these same objections?

Bradracer18 · 08-19-2006, 02:17 PM

Ok thanks guys. I understand all of what you are saying, just kinda hard for a novice like myself to picture it all right away. I guess if I put the boards inbetween the poles, that would probably be the easiest for insulation and siding. BUT, I'm still not seeing how I attach the trusses to the poles(other than pole barn nails)....don't they have to sit on a board that goes all around usually??

Next, I know sliding doors aren't very tight....but we are going to only have a 8' ceiling(closed off with metal)....so a door would make that section of the ceiling shorter(when open), right? I don't know any way around this......and still be able to keep the ceiling closed off for cooling.

Any help on how deep I put the poles in the ground(approx)?? And do I just tamp the dirt real well, and then set the pole....or do I use some sort of concrete??

For the roof, I've always used 2x4's on edge and ran spikes down through them......and the screwed the steel to them. Is this ok??

Also joasis....are you saying for the walls to do it the regular way....for the outside(lay the 2x6's flat up against the poles, going from attaching one pole to the next)?? If so, then do what on the inside?? I'm assuming the same, but cut them to go inbetween the poles....

Thanks again guys!!
Brad

maj · 08-19-2006, 02:58 PM

Ok, so for the nailers on the walls....I'll put the 2x6's in flat, so it would look like a ladder(wide), is that correct?? YES

If so, do I need to put 2' boards inbetween these to keep them strait and to help tie into?? You could, because with poles 8' - 10' apart the 2x6's will sag a little, but so what?, it's all getting covered right?

I understand everything about the roof. Just a few more questions. How big of a pitch do you suggest? I would do no less than a 4/12, which is pretty common 'round here for pole sheds.

How many rafters(I was thinking as many as poles as I have)??Use engineered trusses designed for the loads in your area and the spans on your building. As I explained before, the trusses will sit on top of the posts in a notch made with a chainsaw, then fastened to the notch side.

Also, how far do you space the poles apart(and do I use 6x6's...was thinking 8')???Of course you'll use 6x6 if you're going to go with my idea of laying the 2x6 nailers sideways in between the poles. I would put the poles at 8' O.C. for the 40' walls, then one in the center of the 20' end walls.So you'll need 14 poles & 6 trusses 20' long.

And, how far into the ground do I put the poles(and do I set them with concrete or anything)?? 48" deep. You'll get differing opinions on what to use around the pole. IMO, the best way is to put in 6" of gravel at the bottom of the hole, set the post in the gravel, then backfill completely with gravel. This way all the water drains completely down and away from the post. With concrete at the bottom water will sit there and eventually rot away at the bottom of the post. With concrete all around the post, water will get trapped between the concrete and post and start rotting.

One more thing, If I want to put in some doors(large sliding/track doors...maybe 8' wide).....will I need to put poles in on each side of the doors too?? YES

I am also wanting to put in a walk in door(36" max)....so will I need a pole on the other side of that too?? YES

These doors will probably be placed with one side next to a post.

Thanks a ton, I appreciate everything!!!!
Brad

maj · 08-19-2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdshunk

I looked into having a pole barn type building built for me. As this type of construction is not covered by the IRC or the IBC, I was told that I'd need a full set of prints with an engineer's seal and his seal on several different detail pages. I had intended to have some telephone poles milled into 8x8's (or larger), as they are already treated better than PT lumber. I was told that I would need someone to grade stamp these also if they were to be considered structural buliding material.

Any of you all face these same objections?

Nope, no problems around here, because every Tom, Dick, & Harry has a pole shed of some type on their property.

Most all poles around here now are 3 - 2x6's laminated with PT on the bottom 5' - 6'. Regular SPF on the top part that is not in ground contact. These are ALOT straighter than a full 6x6 pole.

maj · 08-19-2006, 03:10 PM

Ok thanks guys. I understand all of what you are saying, just kinda hard for a novice like myself to picture it all right away. I guess if I put the boards inbetween the poles, that would probably be the easiest for insulation and siding. BUT, I'm still not seeing how I attach the trusses to the poles(other than pole barn nails)....don't they have to sit on a board that goes all around usually?? Nope.... You make a 1 1/2" notch in the side of each post for the truss to sit on. Of course these are the critical part as far as being level. Then you set the trusses in the notch and fasten, then cut off the excess post.

Next, I know sliding doors aren't very tight....but we are going to only have a 8' ceiling(closed off with metal)....so a door would make that section of the ceiling shorter(when open), right? I don't know any way around this......and still be able to keep the ceiling closed off for cooling.

Any help on how deep I put the poles in the ground(approx)?? 4 feet

And do I just tamp the dirt real well, and then set the pole....or do I use some sort of concrete?? gravel

For the roof, I've always used 2x4's on edge and ran spikes down through them......and the screwed the steel to them. Is this ok?? You could but that's old school. We use saddle hangers 'round here with 2x6's in between.

Also joasis....are you saying for the walls to do it the regular way....for the outside(lay the 2x6's flat up against the poles, going from attaching one pole to the next)?? If so, then do what on the inside?? I'm assuming the same, but cut them to go inbetween the poles....

Thanks again guys!!
Brad

Bradracer18 · 08-19-2006, 03:25 PM

Thanks maj.....I understand your concepts now.....I definately like how you say to set your posts in gravel...good idea. I was shaky on how you attached the rafter to the post, but now I understand. I'm good with a chainsaw...or even sawzall if needed, so that should be no problem.

As far as my roofing way, and yours(saddle hangers and 2x6's), which do you think is cheaper?? I want the strength.....but only to hold snow and such.....so the cheaper method is probaly the way here....but you tell me.

What does steel need to be screwed in at, every how far?? I'm wondering, as to know how far to space my ceiling nailers. And about those nailers, can I just use a nail gun and some 16's to shoot them in, as they will just be holding the steel again???

Any info about a door would be great.....I might be able to go with a large walk in door, just has to be able to let cattle go through it, one at a time.

Finally, can you guys explain to me how to make my building square?? I've got an already poured(old) cement slab we are building over(posts will go outside it, into the ground). I'm assuming squareness is vital....as to not have to rip a sheet of steel crossways. I understand how to make the poles in alignment, using a string line. I'd also like any ideas as to the easiest way of getting the poles plum, in both directions??

Thanks guys!!
Brad

maj · 08-19-2006, 04:28 PM

Brad, we're going to have to start charging a consulting fee pretty soon here!!

Thanks maj.....I understand your concepts now.....I definately like how you say to set your posts in gravel...good idea. I was shaky on how you attached the rafter to the post, but now I understand. I'm good with a chainsaw...or even sawzall if needed, so that should be no problem.

As far as my roofing way, and yours(saddle hangers and 2x6's), which do you think is cheaper?? I want the strength.....but only to hold snow and such.....so the cheaper method is probaly the way here....but you tell me. Your's will be cheaper, but saddle hangers are prolly only a couple bucks each. I always layout my trusses while they're still on the ground for the roof purlins, then attach all the saddle hangers while on the ground. Then I set the trusses on the posts and temporarily brace them. Then I cut all the 2x6 purlins the same size as the inside truss spacing for each bay. Some posts may not be spaced the same as others, so be sure to measure each section. Install all the purlins in the saddle hangers. As long as all the purlins for each bay are cut the same length, you will essentially "self-square" the building.

What does steel need to be screwed in at, every how far?? I usually go 3' centers.

I'm wondering, as to know how far to space my ceiling nailers. I would do ceilings at 2' centers, so you can use standard 24" (actually 23 1/2") fiberglass batts for insulation. These could be 2x4's set in joist hangers on each side of the trusses.

And about those nailers, can I just use a nail gun and some 16's to shoot them in, as they will just be holding the steel again??? You could

Any info about a door would be great.....I might be able to go with a large walk in door, just has to be able to let cattle go through it, one at a time. Perhaps a small bi-fold like you see on airplane hangars? Alot of grain farmers around here have them on their heated shops in order to get their equipment in & out for repairs.

Finally, can you guys explain to me how to make my building square?? I've got an already poured(old) cement slab we are building over(posts will go outside it, into the ground). I'm assuming squareness is vital....as to not have to rip a sheet of steel crossways. I understand how to make the poles in alignment, using a string line. I'd also like any ideas as to the easiest way of getting the poles plum, in both directions??Set up batter boards a couple of feet out from the demensions of the building, then stringline the whole perimeter with your 20' x 40' demensions. Pull the diagonal measurments and adjust the string until your diagonals are the same. Then double & triple check ALL dimensions. The nice thing about pole sheds with steel exterior is, if it is out of dimension or squarea little, the rake & corners will hide some of that!

Thanks guys!!
Brad

maj · 08-19-2006, 04:46 PM

Damn Brad, I just realized you're from Iowa!!!!

Here's just an example of what I'm talking about. I have no idea what they cost or what sizes.

http://www.bifold.com/

They're in Fairfax, Minnesota.

**joasis** · 08-19-2006, 05:01 PM

Only from Iowa would these questions come from....so maj..if I learn to use batter boards, can I then bake a cake????

By the way Brad, this forum is for contractors, just so you know...check out DIY Forum...you will get answers there also. Some of us post both.

Bradracer18 · 08-19-2006, 05:03 PM

Yep maj....just an ol' Iowa farm boy. I won't ask anymore questions, but you've done a great job so far.....pretty much everything is picture perfect in my mind, so great job!!! If I end up with trouble while in the process, I might get back on and ask.....

Thanks again,
Brad

Sorry joasis, and anyone else who I've offended by posting in here.....didn't know this was for contractors only I guess. Sorry again.

maj · 08-19-2006, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joasis

Only from Iowa would these questions come from....so maj..if I learn to use batter boards, can I then bake a cake????

By the way Brad, this forum is for contractors, just so you know...check out DIY Forum...you will get answers there also. Some of us post both.

Joasis, in Iowa you must be licensed by the state culinary board in order to bake anything!!!!

So to answer your question, yeah you prolly could in Okie, but not here in the land of hacks.

maj · 08-19-2006, 05:10 PM

OK, lock 'er up boys, this ones busted!!!!!

**joasis** · 08-19-2006, 05:18 PM

Licensed in Iowa? Hmmm...guess you don't have that one either, huh Mark?

I wasn't picking on you Brad...but you will get spotted on here, since you are talking to the hack contractors...they can't run Mark and me off...but they can get you

Bradracer18 · 08-19-2006, 06:19 PM

Just wondering.....how do you guys get the name "contractor"...like on this site I mean??? Just wondering is all.....I've framed for a year or so, and helped some contractors locally here....so not totally new here....just looking to get all my ducks in a row(makes for quicker building, in my opinion....with less mistakes)....lol....I have enough trouble cutting once and measuring twice......ha

Thanks either way guys......I appreciate everything, and I hope you know that!!!!!

Thanks again,
Brad

**joasis** · 08-19-2006, 06:56 PM

If you are in construction, then you are working towards being a contractor, unless you want to just hammer nails for a paycheck...getting to the point when someone hires you to build a house, or a barn, and you give them a price and loose your a$$ or make the bank...you will then join the ranks of contractors...or hacks, like me and maj (Mark).

jmic · 08-19-2006, 07:01 PM

Personaly Brad I think you qualify to be a part of our group here. What better way for someone who's been working in the trade for a year or so to learn more than by asking for help from some of our seasoned members.
Welcome!