Soundproofing Between Floors

wadswob

I am remodeling a basement into a mother-in-law unit and am wondering what the best way to insulate for sound is. I am addressing the issues of sound travel through ducts, pipes, etc. I am most concerned with what type of insulation to use between the floors. Any suggestions?

neolitic

Hang 5/8 drywall (double layers if you can)
from "resilient channel."
Rigid fiberglass between joist.
Homasote underlayment on the floor above if possible.

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stevensmth89

Make the floors really thick, and make sure that you can't hear any noises through the heating system.

rbeck3@ec.rr.co

dont let the mother in law move in

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passingwindII

BattleRidge

I am not 10 percent sure about the insulation part, I hang alot of rock on higher end houses and they always have R 38 batts between the tgis, you can also double layer the rock, or you can put a layer of sound board then rock, thats a bit easier and cheaper. For the pipes its would probably be just the normal pipe wraps you see, i don't have the name for it, you could ask that in the HVAC forum? I don't know your budget either, but I hung this rock called 545 THX Soundrock in a basement for a LOADED homeowner once but its pretty pricey at 194 bucks a sheet. Apparently its equal to 11 layers of 5/8s rock though. But its VERY labor intensive. I can give your more info on it if you are interested its a pretty rare product I think. But it will be DEAD quiet.
They also make a sound putty so you can wrap it around the top of light fixtures switches and other stuff, its from that same THX soundrock company I think

Some one needs to get rid of this realtor guy too he doesn't know ANYTHING.

James Boyd

I wouldn't spend a nickel on quiet rock or any factory soundproof rock. You can build it on site better, cheaper and more profitably.

Ceilings are a bummer, so price it accordingly.

duckdown

I agree, you shouldn't spend lots of money on 545 and construct the solution onsite. As you are aware, there is lots of drywall waste and at $100 a sheet, it adds up quickly.

I recommend two sheets of 5/8"s with a product called Green Glue between them. Also consider stuffing with Mineral Wool type insulation to provide deadening. This approach is cheaper than using RSIC clips.

BKFranks

Owens Corning
http://www.owenscorning.com/quietzone/quietzone.asp
Products
http://www.owenscorning.com/quietzon.../products3.asp

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mudpad

I am completing a high end 5 floor condominium project. Architect speced the following sound deadening components between floors.

1.) 5/8 drywall on resilient channels 2' on center.
2.) open web floor trusses 16" on center
3.) 3/4 toungue and groove subfloor
4.) 1/4 inch "acoustimat", supplied and installed by the gypcrete sub
5.) 1" gypcrete
6) 1/4" rubber mat under all hard surfaces (hardwood and ceramic tile)
7) carpet with pad in all other areas

Guess what? You can still hear a 200 lb plumber stomping around up there. You already got the best advice--don't let MIL move in!

mudpad

oh, I forgot- R19 sound batts between trusses

Splinter

Duckdown is right on with the Mineral Wool insulation... Fiberglass doesnt work. I use Roxul here on Long Island, you may have a different brand available locally. Someone else mentioned an acoustimat... The step up would be a mass-loaded vinyl sheet. A roll of it is rather expensive, but it does work. Green glue is also an excellent recommendation, you just need a lot of it.

Ideally, you should frame a new ceiling for the basement so you dont get vibration transmission through the joists. That's why you can still hear a 200lb plumber walking around above, even with soundproofing in place. You can run the new ceiling joists in-between the floor joists so you dont lose room height. Just keep the bottom of the ceiling joists an inch below the existing joists so the sheetrock stays isolated from old framing. Plumbing, electrical, and HVAC can really screw up this plan, but if you're working with a clean slate, it's the ideal solution. Pack it all with mineral wool insulation.

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- Alex

Long Island Remodeling Contractor

James Boyd

Actually, fiberglass, mineral fiber and cellulose all perform somwhat equally. This is based on extensive lab tests done by the NRC labs in Canada. They have a multi-million dollar facility that just tests soundproofing methods and materials.

Tests showed that mineral fiber had a small edge in the upper frequencies, and fiberglass was better in the low frequencies. Since we are much more concerned with low frequency noise (it's much harder to stop) you are definately better off with fiberglass.

Don't overpack it.

James Boyd

Also, your results would be much better if you included multiple techniques.

Insulate with R19 (more is not better)

De-couple with resilient clips and channel, not "resilient channel"

Use a lot of mass from double 5/8" drywall

Damp the drywall panels with Greenglue.

Each of these items does a different thing, so one does not replace the other

KennMacMoragh

It's hard to stop sound through a floor. I remember living in a remodeled basement where the floors were supposedly sound proof. I don't know what they did to sound proof it, but you could still hear almost everything going on up above. I'd tell the homeowner that no matter what you do, it won't stop very much of the sound.

As for techniques; insulation, rc channel, double layer 5/8" sheetrock. Those are the only methods I'm aware of that would help. Yes gypcrete or lightweight concrete on the floor above would help for sound, but I think that's out of the question for a remodel. You wanna tear up the carpet to do that? And then redesign the floor framing to take the extra load?

One thing I always thought would be cool for a basement, is if you designed it with a slightly higher ceiling and then dropped it with 2 x 4's. An air gap is the most effective way to sound proof anything. And it would give you room for ducts and anything else to run through it. But yeah, not going to happen with a remodel.

James Boyd

I agree Kenn. Floor / ceilings are tough. An actual footfall introduces vibration differently than airborne noise from speakers.

Most attempts fail because they use resilient channel. RC is not specified by the SSMA like studs and Drywall Furring Channel are. So you don't know anything about the potential performance.

Also, I see many jobs where they apply RC straight on the existing drywall... then add more drywall. This is a VERY BAD move. The trapped little air cavity makes things a lot worse in the lower frequencies.

One thing I just tried in a recent job was adding drywall and g glue to the underside of the subfloor.

- I removed the existing lid.

- Added 5/8 rock and glue to underside of subfloor. Screwed into place

- Added R-19 fiberglass

- Installed inexpensive resilient clips and hat track

- Hung 2 layers of 5/8" rock to ceiling with g glue.

The results were a LOT better than I ever figured. Customer gave me a bonus.

I followed these plans: http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/...noise_ceilings

option #2

Cache

I realize that this is a dead thread, but thought I might just introduce a solution to one of the issues raised here. I recently completed a two story with full basement. Almost entire main floor is 3/8" polished marble tile. Same stuff was used in large master bath on upper floor.

Upper floor construction:
-Joists 16"oc
-2 layers 3/4" CDX
-Thinset
-Ditra
-Thinset
-Tile

Main Floor:
-Joists 16"oc
-2 layers 3/4" CDX
-Protecto 6000 Primer
-Whisper Mat- CS
-Thinset
-Tile

Both were finished with 1/2" drywall for ceiling below. Neither were insulated. The floor using the Whisper Mat-CS is MUCH more sound resistant, including both airborne sound and impact sound. Footsteps (especially high heels) in the master bath come through loud and clear below. Same footsteps on the main floor are much more muted. Conversation is not audible through the main floor. Can't say the same for the master bath. I'm certain that if I had insisted on 2 layers of 5/8" drywall and G glue, as well as a bit of insulation, I would've achieved an STC close to 60 and an IIC close to 70.

I have no stake in the Protecto Wrap company, and this was my first experience with Whisper Mat. I gotta tell you though, the ease of use is insane. Much faster than ditra or hardie. Dead flat surface to work with that is comfy to kneel on during tile install. Serves as both noise suppression and crack suppression. Material cost is similar to ditra if thinset is included in material cost. Waste is almost non-existent. Is less than 1/8" thick, so tile to carpet transitions are better.

Just my experience.

wheeler

r-30 batt between joists helps. closed cell foam helps a whole lot more. quiet rock, 3 or 5 ply, is a serious attack on noise traveling up from the basement through the floor. pull the floor above and apply any number of systems to attenuate dead-drop concerns from the floor above traveling down. there are various rubber products that are effective, you can find these on the internet.

you can spend a lot of money fighting noise between floors and walls but if it were my house i would relocate every single duct, chase and pipe adjoining walls or ceiling in the rental space, stuff the ceiling with r-30, rock, tell the tenant to keep it down in writing, and declare victory.

JohnFRWhipple

What is the thickness of the Protecto Wrap? We are looking at using some NobleSeal SIS in a Condo renovation to reduce the sound transfer from a Jacuzzi Tub. I do have some Jiffy Seal 140/60 here on hand as well as the primer. I wonder the difference between the two Jiffy Seal products??

JW

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John Whipple (By Any Design Ltd.) - Member of Terrazzo Tile and Marble Association of Canada, the National Kitchen & Bath Association and the National Tile Contractors Association. Specializing in Vancouver bathroom renovations, linear shower drain installations and shower waterproofing procedures.

JohnFRWhipple

Protecto Wrap - WhisperMat-CS

http://www.protectowrap.com/pdf/spec...s-specdata.pdf

PHYSICAL PROPERTIES

• Thickness - 110 mil (2.8 mm)
• Color - Gray top, black adhesive bottom
• Elongation (ASTMD412) - 500% minimum (rubberized adhesive only)
• Applicationtemperature-45-120degrees F (7 - 49 degrees C)
• In-service temperature -20 - 180 degrees F (-29 - 82 degrees C)
• Robinson Floor Test (ASTM C627) - Rated for light commercial applications


This stuff is very thick at 110 mil. In relation to Noble Seal TS is 30 mil and Kerdi 8 mil. The NobleSeal SIS is 1.25mm (.050”) or about 50 mil.

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John Whipple (By Any Design Ltd.) - Member of Terrazzo Tile and Marble Association of Canada, the National Kitchen & Bath Association and the National Tile Contractors Association. Specializing in Vancouver bathroom renovations, linear shower drain installations and shower waterproofing procedures.