Second Floor Squeaks

fvmerl

I am working for a builder doing all his punch work and my work too. He has an occupied house that is only about 3 months old and the owner is complaining.

As you walk around upstairs you do not hear squeaks or any kind of sounds. However, from downstairs you can hear every footstep and squeaks as someone walks upstairs. The homeowner wants me to rip up all the floors and "fix" the noise. I told him the builder would not pay for something like that and I didn't know what to fix even if I did rip up the floors. Anyone with any ideas as to what defect in the framing or otherwise that would cause this? How would you fix it?

This is about a 3500 sq ft house located near Raleigh, NC. Floor joists are 2 x 10 on 16" centers. 3/4" tongue and groove OSB subflooring that is glued and nailed down. Everything upstairs is carpeted except bathrooms. Any help is appreciated. Could the span of the joists be the problem? I haven't measured or checked the blueprints on that yet.

bigchaz

What subdivision is that in? Whos the builder?

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troubleseeker

The squeeks are from wood moving against nails. No way should this occur with 3/4" t & g sub floor that has sufficient glue under it. Obviously it doesn't, and most likely many of the nails have missed the floor joists, and are rubbing the side of them as the sub floor flexes under weight and/or the sub floor is bridging very wavy floor joists, and once again the floor flexes when you step on a low spot of the joist, causing the wood to slide down the nail shank and squeek. The only positive cure is to remove the carpet, accurately locate the floor joists, and screw the floor down with a screw about an inch or so next to each nail, and probably more in between because the odds are the nails will be spaced way too far apart also. Every nail head that shows any sign of having risen up, no matter how minimally, when you set the screw next to it must be removed, not knocked down. Include the cost of an auto feed screw gun in you price.
Why wouldn't the contractor be responsible for the cost of this, three months is a brand new house, and hearing "footsteps" on the second story floor is not unusual, but squeeks are not acceptable.

Heritage

Troubleseeker pretty much summed it up. A lot of installers don't mark their lines properly and miss the joists too much, glue is not an excuse.

I would rip out the carpet, remove one section of ply to locate a joist. Mark the rest of the room on 16s, screw in, test it out.

If the problem isn't fixed, there may be issues with the joists, if that's the case then you're going to have to sister the joists or atleast brace them in the trouble spots.

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jmic

Why would you have to remove a section of plywood to locate a joist ? You'll be able to see where they are nailed, just verify the edges of the joist by driving nails to either side untill you find the edges. Mark the center and pull your layout either way from there.

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Heritage

I worked on a home once, where the installers missed half of the joists. 1 or 2 inches off the right or left. If that's the case, which guide do you use? That's why I'd take one section out to verify for myself. Trust no one

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skymaster

You can also just take an 1/8 drill bit and find you edges just like using a nail just easier on ur body, then center up layout on 16, drill each spot to b shure ya hit someting . I would do that in 3 places at each wall and center. check ur measurements so you do not miss the fact there might be a bearing header in ther and u have the 1 1/2 offset that will mess ya up.
JackM

troubleseeker

Exactly, was going to say the same thing about the above joist locating ideas. It is also more obvious when you miss the joist with the drill bit, because it will immediately plunge downward, whereas the nail shank will still have some resistence going through the sub floor, although it is still pretty fairly easy to feel the difference.

He also should use a screw that has an unthreaded portion at the top of the shank, at least an inch long (these are commonly referred to as assembly screws) This will allow the screw to "spin" in the sub floor, thus drawing it tight much better than a fully threaded screw shank, which will tighten up in the sub floor itself.

But once more, I bring up what I think should be the most obvious point here..this is only a three month old house, why doesn't the HO pursue the builder to cover the cost of this under his warranty period? A 3500 sq. foot house is not excatly a bottom end starter home, I would be wondering how much other poor quality workmanship is going to reveal itself in the next couple of years, which will certainly be at the HO's expense.

fvmerl

Thanks everyone for your suggestions.

Concerning the builder not paying to fix the problem, there is no problem with them paying and standing behind their product. I am sure most of you have dealt with the homeowners who think that ripping out everything and starting over is better than fixing what is already there. You know, a nick in the moulding. Tear it out and replace, recaulk and repaint is their idea, instead of just filling the nick, sanding and touchup paint. The homeowner in this case suggested taking up ALL the subflooring on the second floor and redoing it. NO, the builder will not do that and neither will I. I will fix things but not just to do "busy" work. I have a lot a experience with squeaks. The problem here is it is not a squeak that you can hear under your feet while you are walking. Those can be fixed rather easily. I use Squeak No More screws that are scored and then you snap off the heads below carpet level. They save my life fixing squeaks. This does not sound like a nail partially through a joist or missing a joist. You can only hear the noise when you are downstairs and someone is walking upstairs. And this applies to everywhere they walk upstairs not just in one area or one room.

I will let you in on a easy way to find joists. I put in a screw part way and take it out. I have bent a coat hanger into sort of a rounded 90 degree angle with about 8 or 9 inches long past the bend. I put some masking tape around the hanger to act as a "tell tale" (sailor's term) that shows me the direction of the hanger that is bent. I insert the end of the hanger into the hole left from the screw and turn the hanger. Since the part of the hanger under the floooring is over half of the distance between joists I should hit something as I turn the hanger. When it stops, I use my tape measure to locate the end of the hanger and the tape to show me the direction. I then lay a screw at this point to indicate the EDGE of a joist. Turn in the other direction and should hit another edge, measure and lay down another screw. I then put in another screw to see if I hit the joist. Take it out and insert the end of the hanger. If is stops in the hole I hit a joist. I now know where the joist are and which direction they are running. This doesn't work over the garage area because the insullation won't let the hanger turn freely. I use one of the sliding screw starters to insert the screws and to remove a screw you hold the sliding part down against the carpet and it prevents the carpet from pulling up as the screw is removed and stops the carpet from getting caught up around the screw (especailly with Berber). I put in screws until I get the one that stops the squeak and remove the ones that are not contributing to the solution since these screws are expensive and not always in stock at my local Ace Hardware, I reuse them. Hope this can be visuallized and was helpful.

I may remove the carpet in one of the bedrooms they don't have furniture in and screw the floor and see if that works. If it does then I guess I will do the rest of the upstairs. If not they may have to live with it.