How Do You Know It Just Ain't Worth It?

fiore22

How, or when do you know that a homeowner isn't serious about hiring you and is just waisting your time to "just see what it would have cost". Or even better yet, how do you know when they are going to be an absolute nightmare to work with and it's better to just call and tell them your booked till Christmas...what are the tell tale signs?

I have a knack for this now, but sometimes I really miss it.

1. I wrote my third revision of a contract for a client, including the most detailed specifications you could possibly imagine, speaking to them on the phone for countless hours, and being interrogated for countless more. Now they want to hire a different guy to do the flooring, and a different guy to do the acoustic ceiling removal. Hmm, I thought I WAS a general contractor. I wouldn't take this job for double what I bid now...no way in hell. - nightmare client, I should have caught this one early on.

2. Client isn't sure what they want. As you guide them a bit, they keep saying, "yea that's good, get me a price on that, oh yea, and a price on that too". - time waster.

send_it_all

It sounds as if you must have broke down your estimate line by line with a seperate price for each step of the job. As I have learned, this is an invitation for them to shop prices for each step. I would politely, but somewhat firmly tell them that you strongly prefer to do all of the work that you took the time to estimate. That way you have control of the schedule, and the quality of the finished product. I stopped doing line items on my proposals not too long ago for this very reason. Remind them that you have put in many unpaid (i assume) hours poring over details with them and by yourself and that shopping out portions of your job to save a couple hundred bucks seems a little unfair at this point.

fiore22

I couldn't agree more. Once they had told me that, I was at the point of not wanting the job anyhow. Not going to try and get a job I don't want at this point. With regards to line-items, I have some clients really love them, infact thats how I get the job a lot of the times...I broke everything down and the other guy didn't. I have no idea whether to keep doing it now.

sgrprince

Detailed specifications are good (unless you're doing something time and materials). They protect you, and they protect the client. I'm sure your clients do like seeing what you're going to do exactly. The problem, the way I see it, is that you broke stuff down in a way that listed prices for each little thing you're going to do.

You DO need to consider everything you're going to do, and figure out how much it's going to cost you do to, and add a percentage profit to that. What you don't need to do is tell your customer what the cost is for that little thing.

For example, you said they were looking to find somebody else to remove the acoustic ceiling (texture?). Instead of giving them your price for removing the ceiling tile, you might put something in the your proposal such as, "The ceiling texture will be removed by the contractor, and the ceiling will be given a level 5 finish." Then just give them one big price at the end. That way they still know what you're going to do, but they don't have a chance to question your price on it. I can't say I'm perfectly practicing what I preach yet, but I'm working toward it, and it's what I see as ideal.

bjg5240

Been there many times , and I'm sure we will all be there again!

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KentWhitten

I have a weird sense of when things just ain't right. It's a gut feeling for me. I can't remember if my gut feeling has ever been wrong.

Ed the Roofer

There is an infrequent visitor to this site, named Sony Lycos, who offers his potential client an "SCA", which stands for "Scope of Work and Cost Analysis" for submittal to clients. It is a portion of what he call "The Process".

He enjoys a special referral rating with most new prospects, so his selling tool is his previous experience in providing solutions to the customers current problems and his historical track record of getting the previous satisfied customers their desired results.

They must sign an agreement to commit for him to micro-manage the subleties of the decision making process until you both agree upon a workable budget for the desired scope of work being referenced. There is a fee for you providing this "Scope of Work and Cost Analysis". Upon completion of obtaining their dream specifications within their budget, they are still free to contract with someone else, but by this time you have established a link and credibility with them, so why would they?

Your reputation as a problem solver must be pre-positioned for this to work if you desire to have them commit to a yet unknown project specification.

Ed

AtlanticWBConst

Ed,

Sounds like Sonny is able to accomplish this because he has a "higher End" clientele. I could see how his process would work very well with such customers.

Getting back to the original poster's situation: Obviously, It's not a good thing (for many, many reasons) to allow a client to bring in their "own" subcontractors to do specifics on a project that you are expected to GC.
The glaring financial factor that jumps out to me, is that you will end up having to manage them and their work....for which you are not making a single dime doing.

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- Build Well -

JamesNLA

Went to a ladys house to look it over. She wants a tankless HWH. I get there, there are 2 tanked heaters, 1 gas one electric. On propane (kinda rare around here) and just a slew of other things that caught my eye. I go under to see the plumbing, all galvi. I tell her you really should have this house repiped. Her responce was "that's what all the other plumbers have been telling me too"............sigh......

So whatever, I write up 2 proposals, one was just a tankless install, the other was much more involved including a recirc system and almost repipping the house (horizantal repipe). Now the more detailed invoice came out to just over 6 grand, bout 4 days work start to finish. This douch emails me back and says " I guess I didn't make myself clear, WE are going to remove the existing heater and remove the surrounding closet". 6000 job and she writes back about an hour of labor....You asked how does one tell if there is going to be issues with customers?

I promptly replied enlightening her that I have retracted my proposals and I was no longer available to do any sort of work for her. Thank you...blah blah..... The older I get, the more things like this happen. When I was a little younger I'd just take whatever sh*t people would through. Now, if they wanna throw sh*t at me, it better be wrapped in thousands of dollars.

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"....And then we all switch places when I ring the bell"
-Adrock

send_it_all

This is gold.

Mrmac204

wow- this is why I read this forum, so many lessons to learn. I did a quote last sunday, while i was meauring the two HO's were busy telling me how they have a lawsuit going against the building corp and one against the original builder, and planning to file another one against a small subcontactor who did their kitchen (I couldn't find anything wrong with the kitchen, looked like good work to me)
so I'm thinkin while I'm measurin - do I want to work for these guys? hmmmmmm NOT! so I quoted 1208.50. 150 feet of 4" plastic dentil corwn, 24 corners. I got the "we have to go over our budget and get back to you" hah, ya I'll be waiting by the phone. I was polite to them, complimented their house, art work etc (wash my mouth out with soap) but I just got a bad feeling about these guys, as much as I need customers, I also need to be paid. next!

AtlanticWBConst

Run, Run, Runnnnn Awayyyyyy (Monty Python).....

There are some people that think contruction should look like computers assembled every square millimeter of it, or they simply create issues in their own warped world and warped heads.

(If they call you back, just tell them alot of previously quoted work was just booked and you are busy for the next 6 months to a year - which is hopefully the truth, since lying about anything is not good)

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- Build Well -

nobull1

I use this a lot "You can be a busy fool or a idle fool" or said another way, I can sit in front of the window watching the cars go by and not get paid or I can work for a customer and not get paid. Guess which one I would prefer to do. I had a saying in a profession I was in for over twenty years previous to Farming/Excavating "If in doubt throw it out". Whenever I went against my better judgement "I" would get burnt. I just got tired of having a sore rear from kicking myself.

Brian

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dougchips

I generally inform people that we are not a match. In order for us to do business both sides have to get a warm feeling about the price and the outcome of the project.

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AtlanticWBConst

Agreed...Those have been my best clients, even long after the job is done....

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- Build Well -

troubleseeker

After a while you just get a knack for people, and an ear for things they say during casual conversation; like how many years they have been wanting to do this project but the costs just seems to keep going up (daah?), or how they will contact you after they have received bids from "all" of the other contractors, or the constant complaining about everyone who had done anything for them in the past.

Our first meeting is very general in terms of pricing what is believed they want.... additions, kitchens, baths, etc, similiar to your project cost XX$ per foot in our experience. That will put your job very close to the ***$ range. Is that what you had in mind for a budget? If they are wanting to spend $50K for what job cost histories show will be a $80K project, it is time to gracefully back away, especially if this is an off the cuff customer. Since 95% of our business is repeat or direct client referrals, we are willing to spend some time explaining why their numbers are off base, but sometimes it is obvious that even then it is not going to happen. Here, we just explain that we know that we cannot produce a project of quality that we are comfortable with for their budget, and do not wish to cut corners on our quality. Thanks for the chance to look at your job, and please contact us if we may help you in the future.

DrewD

[quote=AtlanticWBConst;255435]Run, Run, Runnnnn Awayyyyyy (Monty Python).....

There are some people that think contruction should look like computers assembled every square millimeter of it, or they simply create issues in their own warped world and warped heads.

You think thats bad, try building log homes. Sometimes the Logs don't quite seat like the other ones, or will be about 1/16" longer or shorter than the rest, next thing the HO going through the house asking why one log has more knots than the one above it. Thank god my boss has to deal with them and not me. Like he says, "its wood, deal with it." And when we do our framing we have to leave an 1 1/2" settling space between all plates and beams/girders/joists and what not. Let a HO come in and see that. A friend of the HO came in to see the cabin, claimed to be a builder with over 20 yrs experience. Tried to convince the HO we didn't know how to frame. Logs shrink, wood settles.

fiore22

This is so damn true. At times I have let the client bring in appliance installers (which I don't mind too much, the release of this liability in replacing some of these ridiculously expensive appliances allows me to sleep at night). However, the client WILL call me when the day comes to install as they will want me there...ya just have to go. I mean I don't want these guys to scratch my cabinets or scuff my floor and then say it was already there.

POOLMANinCT

......amen brother

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Aman

These things need to be cleared upfront..But now when you are already messed up with all this,you just sit back with him and try to solve this problem amicably as if you are too aggressive then it will spoil your reputation...in our business it is our name that works