Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall

 
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Old 02-15-2010, 10:44 PM   #21
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


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In case anyone missed it in the OP I have to bid on cutting a 9feet by 9feet opening for garage door . . .
So he has to bid on something that he has no clue on how to do?????
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Old 02-15-2010, 10:50 PM   #22
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


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So he has to bid on something that he has no clue on how to do?????

Should the trade die when you do??
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Old 02-15-2010, 11:30 PM   #23
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


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Should the trade die when you do??

That's an idiotic thing to say Tom.

Using your "logic" you would bid on doing open heart surgery even though you never went to school for it, never interned, & basically have no freakin clue except you "have to" in you mind.
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Old 02-16-2010, 03:41 AM   #24
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


Just for fun speculation on how I'd do it if I were dumb enough to do it without covering my ass with a signed engineering plan.

It's not just the roof load you have to be worried about with that wall. You're going to have to account for holding up the bricks as well as it's demolished. I'd imagine that would take something along the lines of building a temporary header outside and inside the wall, and then running bolts through both headers and the wall to keep that brick from falling down. Then I'd bust out my concrete saw, cut my opening and then put in a steel I-beam or appropriate laminate beam to give support above my opening.

Minus the technical specs on what size bolts, etc, I'd imagine that's a possible plan that an engineer would recommend.
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Old 02-16-2010, 06:58 AM   #25
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


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Originally Posted by Brickie View Post
That's an idiotic thing to say Tom.

Using your "logic" you would bid on doing open heart surgery even though you never went to school for it, never interned, & basically have no freakin clue except you "have to" in you mind.

Sorry, Brickie, - - the closest your trade will ever come to rocket science or heart surgery is during your dinner table conversations.

Don't worry, - - I won't tell your wife and kids . . .


The guy is not going to pay an architect or engineer to 'bid on' a frikkin' job.

And I doubt if he'll make a decision to sit some job out rather than put dinner on his table because some guy named Brickie on the internet wants to protect some 'imaginary secret' that he never owned to begin with.


For all we know, - - that may just be a single part of bigger job that he's bidding on, - - and he was planning on calling 'you' to come in and actually do it.

But alas, - - now he'll probably go to some other self-declared genius.

Last edited by Tom R; 02-16-2010 at 07:10 AM. Reason: Because I accidentally thought I didn't get it right the first time
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Old 02-16-2010, 07:18 AM   #26
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


Here ya' go, Brickie, - - here's some info for you, - - I'm sure glad these guys didn't come on this forum and ask any questions first . . .


Question

Who performed first open heart surgery?



Answer

Daniel Hale Williams - Introduction: African American Doctor Daniel Hale Williams is credited with having performed open heart surgery on July 9, 1893 before such surgeries were established. In 1913, Daniel Hale Williams Williams was the only African American member of the American College of Surgeons.


Dr. Daniel Hale Williams in 1893? No!


Dr. Williams repaired a wound not in the heart muscle itself, but in the sac surrounding it, the pericardium. This operation was not the first of its type: Henry Dalton of St. Louis performed a nearly identical operation two years earlier, with the patient fully recovering. Decades before that, the Spaniard Francisco Romero carried out the first successful pericardial surgery of any type, incising the pericardium to drain fluid compressing the heart.

Surgery on the actual human heart muscle, and not just the pericardium, was first successfully accomplished by Ludwig Rehn of Germany when he repaired a wounded right ventricle in 1896. More than 50 years later came surgery on the open heart, pioneered by John Lewis, C. Walton Lillehei (often called the "father of open heart surgery") and John Gibbon (who invented the heart-lung machine).


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_perfor..._heart_surgery

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Old 02-16-2010, 10:13 AM   #27
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


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Just for fun speculation on how I'd do it if I were dumb enough to do it without covering my ass with a signed engineering plan.

It's not just the roof load you have to be worried about with that wall. You're going to have to account for holding up the bricks as well as it's demolished. I'd imagine that would take something along the lines of building a temporary header outside and inside the wall, and then running bolts through both headers and the wall to keep that brick from falling down. Then I'd bust out my concrete saw, cut my opening and then put in a steel I-beam or appropriate laminate beam to give support above my opening.

Minus the technical specs on what size bolts, etc, I'd imagine that's a possible plan that an engineer would recommend.
We "needle" and set picks to cut
openings in masonry walls all of the time.
It really isn't rocket surgery, if you
understand the principle of the arch
and transference of loads.
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:32 AM   #28
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


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Originally Posted by Tom R View Post


The guy is not going to pay an architect or engineer to 'bid on' a frikkin' job.
That's what I was going to post and you beat me to it.
The owner is probably kicking tires at this point and trying to get a feel for what kind of $$$$ he is going to have to put out.
Give him the ballpark and tell him that price doesn't include the engineers fee or permit fee since you are altering the structural integrity of the building.
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:01 AM   #29
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


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Maybe where you are, not necessarily
every where.



Exclusive of the roof load,
I'd guess that the weight of
masonry carried over that opening
would be more like 5700lb (fully grouted),
or 2800lb if not grouted.
The bearing steps up at a 45 angle,
so you are distributing the remainder
of the load above, beyond the 9X9 opening.
I know how the load transfer works, what he is asking
" Should I cut a hole above where the opening is and put a I beam to hold the wall while I cut the opening for garage door"

and I think you off with your grouted and not grouted calculations.
12" concrete block wall is 80LB PSF that 7,200LB PSF just above that opening.
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Old 02-16-2010, 12:31 PM   #30
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom R View Post
Why accuse him of being a homeowner when he clearly stated he wants to bid on the job??

Well Tom, Since you happen to be a wood butcher & not a Brickie, one can see why you might be confused.
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Old 02-16-2010, 12:36 PM   #31
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


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I know how the load transfer works, what he is asking
" Should I cut a hole above where the opening is and put a I beam to hold the wall while I cut the opening for garage door"

and I think you off with your grouted and not grouted calculations.
12" concrete block wall is 80LB PSF that 7,200LB PSF just above that opening.
My supplier says 70lbsqft.
Maybe it depends on how many webs....
Even so, it is still only
40.5sqftX80lb=3240lb,
give or take, that would be bearing
on the lintel (exclusive of roof load.)
It is a triangle 9' at the base and
4' tall, or 40.5sqft.
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Old 02-16-2010, 12:56 PM   #32
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolitic View Post
We "needle" and set picks to cut
openings in masonry walls all of the time.
It really isn't rocket surgery, if you
understand the principle of the arch
and transference of loads.
Dumb question time: what's needling? I'm assuming it's running a bunch of tapcons through a board and the wall.
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Old 02-16-2010, 01:08 PM   #33
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


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Originally Posted by Tom R View Post
The guy is not going to pay an architect or engineer to 'bid on' a frikkin' job.

And I doubt if he'll make a decision to sit some job out rather than put dinner on his table because some guy named Brickie on the internet wants to protect some 'imaginary secret' that he never owned to begin with.


For all we know, - - that may just be a single part of bigger job that he's bidding on, - - and he was planning on calling 'you' to come in and actually do it.

But alas, - - now he'll probably go to some other self-declared genius.

Just like your posts in P & R, you expose yourself as a clueless self appointed expert


I know Tom that this may be difficult for a wood butcher like you to follow


OP claims to be a "Concrete & Masonry Contractor"

He then asks a question that any 1st year apprentice would know the answer to.

In other words wood butcher Tom: Basic Masonry 101

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Old 02-16-2010, 01:15 PM   #34
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


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Originally Posted by BuildersII View Post
Dumb question time: what's needling? I'm assuming it's running a bunch of tapcons through a board and the wall.
It's just another reference to underpinning.


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Old 02-16-2010, 01:16 PM   #35
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


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Originally Posted by neolitic View Post
My supplier says 70lbsqft.
Maybe it depends on how many webs....
Even so, it is still only
40.5sqftX80lb=3240lb,
give or take, that would be bearing
on the lintel (exclusive of roof load.)
It is a triangle 9' at the base and
4' tall, or 40.5sqft.
In NJ the basic is 80LB PSF , most use 100LB PSF including mortar, dura-wall every other course etc. Your calculations 100%, your wall height if off thats the only difference we have...He said the wall was 24 courses, thats a 16 foot heigh wall...I took 9 courses out (should be 10) that was left with 15 courses that 10 feet of wall remaining above x 9' wide = 90 (sqft) X 80 lb= 7200lb if cut 10 courses out we would end up with 84 sqft x 80LB with a load of 6720 lb.
Anyhow, thats not important, the important thing is he shouldn't be here asking this, he should contact an architect and have a plan, then hire someone who knows what they doing, because he is obviously has no clue whats going on.
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Old 02-16-2010, 01:25 PM   #36
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


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Anyhow, thats not important, the important thing is he shouldn't be here asking this, he should contact an architect and have a plan, then hire someone who knows what they doing, because he is obviously has no clue whats going on.
I agree
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Old 02-16-2010, 02:15 PM   #37
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


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Originally Posted by greg24k View Post
In NJ the basic is 80LB PSF , most use 100LB PSF including mortar, dura-wall every other course etc. Your calculations 100%, your wall height if off thats the only difference we have...He said the wall was 24 courses, thats a 16 foot heigh wall...I took 9 courses out (should be 10) that was left with 15 courses that 10 feet of wall remaining above x 9' wide = 90 (sqft) X 80 lb= 7200lb if cut 10 courses out we would end up with 84 sqft x 80LB with a load of 6720 lb.
Anyhow, thats not important, the important thing is he shouldn't be here asking this, he should contact an architect and have a plan, then hire someone who knows what they doing, because he is obviously has no clue whats going on.
Greg, think "arch."
The lintel will not actually bear
the entire height of the wall
above the opening.
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Old 02-16-2010, 02:19 PM   #38
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


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Originally Posted by BuildersII View Post
Dumb question time: what's needling? I'm assuming it's running a bunch of tapcons through a board and the wall.
Knocking holes above a
proposed opening, and setting
temporary picks to bear the
load until the opening is finished
and lintel is set and masonry
filled in.
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Old 02-16-2010, 05:18 PM   #39
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


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Dumb question time: what's needling? I'm assuming it's running a bunch of tapcons through a board and the wall.

Not a dumb question at all, - - this forum is supposed to be to share information, - - this pic here should help you (and others) envision 'needling' . . .

These needles (steel is often used) would be put in the course above the one you're going to lintel, - - then after you've demo'd your opening and installed your lintels, - - you would just replace the individual (in his case) blocks you had your needles through . . .





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Old 02-16-2010, 05:32 PM   #40
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Re: Cutting An Opening 9'by 9' In A Block Wall


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Not a dumb question at all, - - this forum is supposed to be to share information, - - this pic here should help you (and others) envision 'needling' . . .

These needles (steel is often used) would be put in the course above the one you're going to lintel, - - then after you've demo'd your opening and installed your lintels, - - you would just replace the individual (in his case) blocks you had your needles through . . .




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