bdubbs

I've heard that once you cut the moisture off from a rotten sill, it will not continue to rot. Any truth? Was wondering what the opinions were on wrapping a soft semi-rotten sill with aluminum.

dougchips

Is the end of the sill rotten or is the entire sill?

I am not much for hiding rotten wood, repair or replace is an ethical option.

supercrew

"it will not continue to rot"

i believe that to be false.

i was once told that rot is like cancer...if you dont remove it, it will spread.whether or not thats true, i dont know.

but ive NEVER seen a rotting piece of wood STOP rotting.

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Murphy

Not true rotten sills/wood continues to rot untill all rot is removed and source of moisture found and cured.
I replace a lot of sills and noses that homeowners thought they got the rot and the bondo they put in has fallen off because the rot continued.

Smileydog

Everybody does it. The secret to cladding sills on wood windows is: use sill trim right up to the glass. Make sure the sill projects at least 1 1/2 inches past the finished wall (stucco, siding, etc) below the window. (If it doesn't you can nail on 1x2) It is very important to have a good slope on the cladding, both on top, and underneath, so water runs off. Then caulk between the sill trim and the glass, and against the brickmold. If slope is good that's all you need, trapped moisture can vent out underneath, you don't need to caulk there. That sill will outlast the rest of the window.

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tomstruble

i agree with smilelydog his advice on the sill is rite onbut most window sill failures ive seen started out with missing metal drip caps on the heads

Smileydog

I also agree with that view. Most of the callbacks we get on window cladding relate to water getting in around the drip cap. Most of the houses built up here during the 70's, 80's, and 90's had wood windows, and stucco finish. The window manufacturer started out by offering lifetime warranty, now I think it's down to about 6 or 7 years. We are kept busy replacing the smaller windows with triple glazed PVC, but most of the bigger houses (usually with vaulted ceilings) have massive wood windows, where the wood still looks really great on the inside. If they are triple glazed, we simply clad these all around, using sill trim right to the glass. The cladding is usually slipped under the existing drip cap on top the window. However, our installers are reluctant to caulk above the windows, because local building codes call for the building paper to overlap the top of the drip cap under the stucco, and this is supposed to allow condensed moisture to vent out over the capping. (in theory) The last two callbacks I had were both related to the builder having used 2 pieces of drip cap instead of one continuous piece. The wood shrinks, and water backs up between the two pieces. In a case like this, all you can do is caulk it up tight, right to the ends of the drip cap, which is also a common area of water penetration.

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Burby

It sure will continue to rot, wood decay is caused by a living bacteria, removing the worst of it, still leaves the bacteria present.
Replace the sill with treated or pvc sill stock.
With the sill removed treat the area under with tim-bor or Copper brown.
Copper brown, (under new name now, but Jasco says name change only, is or was the only product on the market that claimed to kill the actual bacteria that causes wood decay.
Just do becareful you don;t get it on the interior of the home, it does have a strong oder to it & is toxin, so read the directions. Great stuff though.
Then also find the cause of the moisture problem & repair that.

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We Fix Houses

I quoted to replace this twin properly. Referral job. Head flashing, R & R siding 1 side. house wrap, peel 'n stick. Install twin, pvc sill, frame, stop & sash $1725.

Lost out to Window World. They replaced all 3 twins in the sunroom. Wrapped the existing sills and BM. Client says it was about the same as my quote for the one window. For me I would not leave the rot.

For rot however I use www.rotdoctor or http://www.abatron.com/cms/ systems. Both sites have a lot of information about the rot process.

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Smileydog

Burby says all the wood needs to be replaced on the windowsill. You do realize that the typical window sill extends from the outside of the sill, right to the inside where the window casing attach. If you take this out, what holds the sash and glass in place? If the window is that bad, shouldn't it be replaced? This is what our company does. Only, we replace the entire unit with one made of PVC. But if the window has minor deterioration on the sill or brick, they can save a lot of the green stuff by capping. Probably what makes the difference is your local climate. Here in Winnipeg, we have an extremely dry climate. I think the rules change if you live in an area with a humid climate.

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tomstruble

if i see a sill as bad as that i woulnt recomend a replacement window i would try to upsell a prime unit.
But if the homeowner insist ill cut along the top of the sill to good wood and get the joint under the unit and install either a pvc sill or a wood replacement and cap it following smileys' procedure.
I will pull the window header off and install a metal drip under the paper that is hopefully there and i dont caulk over my drip.

WarnerConstInc.

Except for the old houses I work on that have a 2 1/2" thick sill that is over 10" deep. Those are a real bitch to dig out. Those almost always lead to some form of artistic creativity.

Burby

--=shaking my head, if you ever bought a pc of sill stock, yup you would see it is the "entire" sill not just the nosing or any other portion of the sill.
So yes I do realize this.
I will try & explain how to replace a sill & answer your question as to what holds the sash & glass in place. First, the sash is a combination of wood & glass, 1 unit, on a double hung, 2 sashes, top & bottom. So you do not have to hold up a sash & glass seperatly. Hopefully with that understood we will move on.
To cover wood decay with metal or anything here in SC, as well as most other states I have worked in, if discovered within 3 yrs, (liability window on repairs) I could and should loose my lisc, that is the law here.
2nd, I do always suggest unit replacement first. But if it is just a bit of sill wood decay & a H/O, after understanding, repair is just that, a repair, then I gladly replace the sill with a treated or pvc sill, the complete sill as well as try to find the cause to prevent further window damage as well as possible wall cavity decay.
Besides, making a repair without attempting to correct the problem is not a good way to operate. Back to sill R&R.
Remove the interior trim, including sill & apron, remove stops & jambliners, (all can be removed without any damage to trim & or walls) Pull all fasteners thru the trim from the back only with dykes or carpenter pliers this leaves the trim looking as before being removed.
Shim each jamb side between jamb & jack stud at the ht of the sill, without moving the jambs, pop a finish nail in each side.
Cut the sill in half or if not used to doing this, make saw cuts about 2" from each jamb, remove the center pc, then split with a chisel the remaining pcs on each side. Now you have a clean opening to work with.
Check for any sill damage, (hopefully it will be properly wrapped) Lift up wrap, coat the 2x sill with copper brown as well as the window jambs to kill any bacteria. Fold wrap back down onto 2x. (I use a garden sprayer to minimize tearing of the wrap while getting good coverage with the copper brown.
Cut new sill to size, caulk with NP1 each sill pocket on the jambs, coat each end of the sill with same, slide in place, shim each end & middle.
Toe nail each end to the jambs, try to install finish screws as well from the jamb to the sill. Apply another bead of caulk between the jamb & sill.
Re-assemble parts.
Spray the jambliners down with dri-slide as well as the side of the sashes for customer ease in operation.
Prep, caulk, & paint as needed. On the interior control your caulking and when you wipe down your caulk bead, roll your finger as you move it down the bead towards the trim to prevent mess on the wall.
Believe it or not, all will look nice without the need to pain the interior wall.
The nice thing is when you leave you can trust you have not covered wood decay.

Regardless of humidity wood decay will continue to grow until removed. More humidity just causes for faster growth of the decay. Dry climates is nice to help prevent wood decay problems as we see here. But then again, it is good for business.

Regardless how much green stuff a H/O can save, me saving my lisc is far more important. I have never had a problem to tell a customer thanks but no thanks if they want something covered or done less than code or laws allow.
And if there are wood windows in a home & you replace a unit with a pvc unit as you state, would that not look a bit funny as well as reduce the homes value?
Are you a company partner or an employee of a company with your mention of "our company".

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Smileydog

I don't intend to get into a verbal sparring match over methods. I think some differences are due to local regions, geography, and especially climate. There must be a huge difference in methods that are used in coastal South Carolina, and freeze-dried center of the continent Manitoba. What works best is what gets the job done, and stands the test of time. (I guess that's why this site is called "Contractor Talk")

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davinci

what do you guys usually charge to replace windows sills?

Burby

Single, Double hung, 3/0 or smaller, sill R&R only = $450.00 ea
Twin, Double hung 3/0 or smaller, sill R&R only = $720.00 ea
Tripple, double hung 3/0 or smaller, sill R&R only = $900.00 ea
Fixed units, 3/0 or smaller, sill R&R only = $450.00 ea
Fixed unit, over 3/0, sill R&R only = $600.00 ea
If sill has vinyl cladding, add $45.00 to install existing clad onto new sill.
Also make styles & rails for sashes, wood or vinyl clad if unable to purchase thru manufacturer.
Discounts offered for 3 or more sills R&R
All sill work includes prep to make weather tight.

Additional charge(s) for:
Interior R&R of blinds, draperies, Plantation shutters, other window accessories.
Discovery of wood decay to framing or unit jambs
Improper install or no, moisture barrier / unit pan flashing
Prep & paint
Priced once on site

Repairs are determined & made after an evaluation of units & discussion with H/O

May sound a bit high, but it is rare I loose a repair I quote.

Some will say makes no sense to repair when can install for about the same price. Before ask or say this, consider window prices today. Followed by prep, prime & 2 finish coats of paint, interior & exterior.
Then repairing makes sense if sill decay is within repair limits.

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Patrick

Seems like your turning it into a big job here. All you have to do is take the stool off, maybe the apron and thats it. I can have a sill changed out in under 30 mins less paint. No wonder you have to charge so much your taking the whole window apart just to replace the sill.

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Originally Posted by Celtic
Like I said...I'm sure you are very good at what you do ~ whatever that is and where ever it happens.

Burby

It don't have to all come out. There are those that do the 30 min or less swap out & there is a customer base for that. It's just not my customer base.
It is just as easy while there to do a repair to inspect & seal the wood jambs behind the liners, clean and seal the sash edges & jambs with dri-slide or if raw wood, paste wax.
It don't take long at all to do the complete. This way the h/o knows what they have behind the liners as well as get a complete window service to allow them to be able to open & close the sashes with ease as should. So many houses I go to, the windows rarely get opened because of the difficulty in doing so. When I leave they operate as should as well as know the condition of their unit. When the customer tries the repaired window, it is rare that they don't have me service all their windows. I get calls to go service windows in a house right after the h/o has closed on their new home.
I have gone into million dollar plus homes within 6 months of the C/O, to remove & replace every door & window in the house due to improper installation. Not just once or twice either.
I just completed a door R&R that was installed just over a year ago. Th guy did it for a great price and in him doing so, I was able to do it again and take home $8,000.00 & that was using the same door. Here on the coast in the S/E moisture is a real problem or I should say is if H/Os go for the less expensive repairs. Smaller, older, single family homes inland it isn't as bad. Here on the Coast with these 3000, sq ft plus homes as fast as they were thorwn up during our building boom, it sure is and is a profitable business repairing them as well.
So it is not just the sill repair I go after, I typically get the repair as well service all the windows in the home. Far more money and worth the time to go to work.
I just don't work for peanuts & I don't ever try to do as others do.
I enjoy each trip to the bank.. All my work is as it always have been, word of mouth.

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kylecheezin

Hi

Our company installs new vinyl sills and noses. We also replace blind stop( it what storm windows are attach to) and brick mould. We charge 315 to 275 per single depending on job size and the location on the home. It takes our guys about 1- 1.5 hours per single. Are experience with wrapping the sills they still rot because the wrap will trap moisture. Depending on the age of the home it may last longer than others.Older homes built around 1983 and older have better lumber. The newer homes let say 10 years old are built with poor quality woods. Also make sure if you use pvc sills that you also upgrade your sealant. Something that will stick to plastic. We use a commercial grade roofing sealant and adhesive. Also if you replace the brick mould you must use an adhesive to glue the brick mould to your siding or sheeting. If it is painted a dark color I have seen it expand and contract away from homes. Here in Kansas City we are constantly redoing handy man and painting companies work. Good Luck to you. Check out our site and our photo gallery.

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www.advantagewindowsolutions.com

tomstruble

nice website kyle