Where do you start when figuring out how to replace a window? - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Mike Finley · 03-22-2005, 03:46 AM

Faced with a bathroom remodel the homeowner wants to know about including replacing the bathroom window. As I look at the thing I have no idea where to start to figure out how much it will cost or even how to measure it!

It is about a late 1970's house, the window is about 2x3 feet, a ugly metal frame horizontal slider. There is no trim, there is drywall for a sill and on the top and bottom. The outside has a screwed on storm window and the house has vinyl siding around the window at best what I can discribe as about a 3 inch wide 'picture frame' of some sort of flat metal.

Am I having a brain fart or what? Is the only way to know what size the window is to tear out the drywall around the inside of the window to expose the framing? Is a window like this removeable without damaging the siding?

WindowMan · 03-22-2005, 07:59 AM

Mike
If it has siding around it , measure from inside give yourself about 1/2 space for side and top-bottom clearance. If its a metal frame it is probably a metal casement window there are alot of those around this area. There are small screws around the frame inside the glazing compound you can grind them off with 3inch grinder and frame should slide out. window companies offer L-angle trim you can use that for your siding and on inside also. Let me know if this makes since. If not maybe i can explain it better some othe way.
I would add around $100 extra for labor because its a non standard window.
Most replacement windows have 3.025 thick frames if that helps.

Jeff

IHI · 03-25-2005, 12:11 PM

Is there anyway you can measure for a replcament window and set it on the finished drywall and then just install some kind of inside stop to finish it off and building outside stop and capping as opposed to getting a new construct type design to fit and all the "rebuild/finishing heaches" that will go along with it?

We did an apartment complex with aluminum windows that had drywall butted right up to them in the jambs, i just measured to fit window in finished opening and then did what was necessary to finish it off inside and out. Worked out great since exterior was ALL limestone. 268 windows later we had it donw pretty quickly and they looked great when we were done.

For the record, replacement windows are usually 3.250 (3 1/4") thick

mikesewell · 03-25-2005, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IHI

...did what was necessary to finish it off inside and out...

Mike,
IHI's phrase speaks volumes. :Thumbs:

It's probably going to be a lot easier than you think (famous last words...).

Maybe:
Pull it. Look at it. Measure it. Put it back in. Order a new one.

IHI · 03-25-2005, 04:08 PM

That's why we get the big bucks right?? Since nothing in remodels has a standard set of rules it's up to us to create creative solutions to problems that makes most people say, "why did'nt I think of that"

Sounds like it may be getting over anaylized, glad I dont do that LOL

NewGuy · 04-17-2005, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Finley

Faced with a bathroom remodel the homeowner wants to know about including replacing the bathroom window. As I look at the thing I have no idea where to start to figure out how much it will cost or even how to measure it!

It is about a late 1970's house, the window is about 2x3 feet, a ugly metal frame horizontal slider. There is no trim, there is drywall for a sill and on the top and bottom. The outside has a screwed on storm window and the house has vinyl siding around the window at best what I can discribe as about a 3 inch wide 'picture frame' of some sort of flat metal.

Am I having a brain fart or what? Is the only way to know what size the window is to tear out the drywall around the inside of the window to expose the framing? Is a window like this removeable without damaging the siding?

Mike when you do work out this problem please post it because I'm going through the same thing, only it's the whole house 16 windows. If I get through it first I will do the same.

Mike Finley · 04-17-2005, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewGuy

Mike when you do work out this problem please post it because I'm going through the same thing, only it's the whole house 16 windows. If I get through it first I will do the same.

Didn't get this gig.

Grumpy · 04-18-2005, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Finley

Didn't get this gig.

At least ya have the knowledge for the future.

The way I have my sales reps is from stopper to stopper and add an inch. Then from bottom of sill to bottom of header and add an inch. Add length and width to get united inches.

The beauty of windows is it's very hard to F up the estimate. Then once the job is sold I or my sub goes out and takes a final measurement. This is when the measuring is critical. I can not explain in words how to measure, it's really a matter of knowing where to put the tape measure.

If the above posts didn't help you, let me know and I can take some pics and use photo shop to do something up for ya.

IHI · 04-18-2005, 09:14 AM

I agree with the measuring thing, mainly why I dont trust any saleman measures-no offense. It's one thing since most of these guys have never held a hammer, and are trying to measure a window-and they dont have any idea what's involved-then cry as their cut gets smaller and smaller when more material and labor are needed for what would be a "normal" install in any seasoned carpenters eyes.

I break windows down into 2 catagories for measuring, the easy ones and everything else. Seems the easy ones dont come around as often as we'd like, so we're stuck meauring those goofy azz frames/openings and I still get surprised sometimes-my houe for example, I installed new construct sinceI gutted the exterior for siding. Did the "normal" jamb to jamb and added 1 1/2" did the sill to top of jamb and added 2 1/2". Once windows were in and old frame was torn out-the builders had the rough opening another 2 1/4" taller then the existing window and used 2x's and shims to "correct" for their f-up.

Awning windows are another one-especially when installing a replacement window/insert. You have to take into account the top frame is at an angle, if you take your measurement from the big side, when you goto install the new replacement you will literally have to remove the entire top frame to get it to fit, so only option for replacement is to measure on the sshort side and fill interior with different stop.

Every case is different more less, a person just has to have the experience to help make the call when taking the measurements.

Tom R · 04-18-2005, 06:37 PM

I do these type of windows every once in a while, - - the way I do it is measure the sheetrock return areas inside to inside, then deduct about 1/4" from both width and height measurements and order 'make-size' replacement windows. Once your ready to remove the old windows, - - first lift the glass panels and screen 'up-and-in' for removal, - - then carefully pry outside siding J-channels loose and remove (you won't need these anymore), - - then pry up bottom of aluminum frame at center (don't worry about denting up sheetrock return, it's gettin' covered), - - and cut through high center point with saw-zall, - - them bend each side up and down, - - they'll break off at the corners. Do likewise with remaining sides and top.

Make and install 'rabbeted' exterior PVC or 'wrapped' wood casings for the exterior so that the inside to inside measurements will allow your replacement window to 'butt up' to the casings with about 1/4" - 1/2" reveal. You'll cut your siding back (with a grinder, - - or snips on a warm day) so it will fall into your 'rabbeted' casing.

Next install your replacements using your exterior casings as a 'stop', - - and install your side screws.

Now, use 1 X 'rips' to line your side jambs out to the plane of your interior sheetrock, - - then 'case' normally, - - and then paint or stain. (Pre-painting is easier/quicker, - - then fill nail holes, - - then 'face-paint)

I'm sure there are 'cheaper' and 'quicker' ways to do it, - - but this is a custom method that offers not only a 'solid install', - - but also leaves the customer with a finish trim on the new windows (inside and out), - - rather than them 'cheap-a$$-no-character' sheetrock returns on the inside and those $1.95 J-channels on the outside.

P.S. Make sure, - - of course, - - you install a custom drip-cap over all top exterior casings.

NewGuy · 04-19-2005, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom R

I do these type of windows every once in a while, - - the way I do it is measure the sheetrock return areas inside to inside, then deduct about 1/4" from both width and height measurements and order 'make-size' replacement windows. Once your ready to remove the old windows, - - first lift the glass panels and screen 'up-and-in' for removal, - - then carefully pry outside siding J-channels loose and remove (you won't need these anymore), - - then pry up bottom of aluminum frame at center (don't worry about denting up sheetrock return, it's gettin' covered), - - and cut through high center point with saw-zall, - - them bend each side up and down, - - they'll break off at the corners. Do likewise with remaining sides and top.

Make and install 'rabbeted' exterior PVC or 'wrapped' wood casings for the exterior so that the inside to inside measurements will allow your replacement window to 'butt up' to the casings with about 1/4" - 1/2" reveal. You'll cut your siding back (with a grinder, - - or snips on a warm day) so it will fall into your 'rabbeted' casing.

Next install your replacements using your exterior casings as a 'stop', - - and install your side screws.

Now, use 1 X 'rips' to line your side jambs out to the plane of your interior sheetrock, - - then 'case' normally, - - and then paint or stain. (Pre-painting is easier/quicker, - - then fill nail holes, - - then 'face-paint)

I'm sure there are 'cheaper' and 'quicker' ways to do it, - - but this is a custom method that offers not only a 'solid install', - - but also leaves the customer with a finish trim on the new windows (inside and out), - - rather than them 'cheap-a$$-no-character' sheetrock returns on the inside and those $1.95 J-channels on the outside.

P.S. Make sure, - - of course, - - you install a custom drip-cap over all top exterior casings.

what does 'rabbeted' mean, and what do you mean use 1 x rips to line your side jambs. Everything else is clear to me and sounds like it would work for me as well, Thanx.

Tom R · 04-19-2005, 09:10 PM

'Rabbeted' means a 'dadoed' edge cut, - - hmm, - - don't know if that was any help, - - in other words you're removing stock along the outside (back) edge of your exterior casings, - - so it can 'recieve' your 'underlapping' siding.

For instance, - - if you decided you wanted to use 1 X 3's for your outside casings, - - you could remove, say, 1/2" X 1/2" out of the outside back edges of them and your siding would fit 'behind-and-under', - - and you would be eliminating the need for J-Channels.

By 1 X 'rips', - - I mean 3/4"(actual) X whatever the distance is from the inside of your new window framing to the interior plane of your drywall. Usually (at least around my way) it would be approximately 1 3/8" (4 5/8" wall thickness minus 3 1/4" window thickness).

So in other words, - - you're window jambs would be an actual 3/4" X 1 3/8".

Hopefully, - - you're understanding my explanation, - - if not, let me know, - - or maybe someone else can explain it better.

P.S. Also, - - I forgot to mention, - - when deducting that 1/4" from the width and height of the size of the opening, - - that will only work if the opening is nice and square to begin with, - - if it's out of square, or if you just want to play it safe anyway, - - deduct 1/2" from each measurement. And don't forget to lightly insulate around the window before installing the jambs.

mikesewell · 04-20-2005, 02:25 AM

Image of rabbet:
www.darkroomsource.net/glossary.shtml

Tom R · 04-20-2005, 03:53 PM

Great link, Mike, thanks, - - whew!, - - I was relieved to see it wasn't that other stray 'rabbit'!!

NewGuy · 04-21-2005, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom R

'Rabbeted' means a 'dadoed' edge cut, - - hmm, - - don't know if that was any help, - - in other words you're removing stock along the outside (back) edge of your exterior casings, - - so it can 'recieve' your 'underlapping' siding.

For instance, - - if you decided you wanted to use 1 X 3's for your outside casings, - - you could remove, say, 1/2" X 1/2" out of the outside back edges of them and your siding would fit 'behind-and-under', - - and you would be eliminating the need for J-Channels.

By 1 X 'rips', - - I mean 3/4"(actual) X whatever the distance is from the inside of your new window framing to the interior plane of your drywall. Usually (at least around my way) it would be approximately 1 3/8" (4 5/8" wall thickness minus 3 1/4" window thickness).

So in other words, - - you're window jambs would be an actual 3/4" X 1 3/8".

Hopefully, - - you're understanding my explanation, - - if not, let me know, - - or maybe someone else can explain it better.

P.S. Also, - - I forgot to mention, - - when deducting that 1/4" from the width and height of the size of the opening, - - that will only work if the opening is nice and square to begin with, - - if it's out of square, or if you just want to play it safe anyway, - - deduct 1/2" from each measurement. And don't forget to lightly insulate around the window before installing the jambs.

Thank you. Yes I understand your explanation and appreciate it. I will let you know how this job turns out. It's scheduled for mid May.

Kevin · 05-05-2005, 01:37 PM

Retrofit window question.

Say for example, your customer has a wood frame window with 2" brickmould & sloped sill installed in a stucco house.

How do you guys measure this window for a vinyl replacement?

I measure existing BM size (width at outside of BM) and deduct 1/4".
Then I measure from top of existing BM to highest point underneath sell, and again, deduct 1/4".

Say the existing BM size is 36" x 48-1/2"....I order my new window with a 35-3/4" x 48-1/4" BM. 95% of the time this leaves me with about 3/8-1/2" of room all the way around for foam/insulation, and allows me to use a 2" casing without seeing paint lines. The 1/8" gap all the way around is easily sealed with a good caulk, and I have zero problems with cutting stucco/siding etc.

How do you guys do it?