Ed the Roofer

Lost,

I do not get your hostility towards tradesmen who take pride in trying to always learn better ways to do installations and on how to run their businesses more successfully.

If you need to make multiple comments to several members, please try to condense the thoughts into one singular post, rather than responding back to back to back consecutively.

It is too bad that you have not yet shown the common sense necessary to get your point across, considering the level of passion you display venting against the products that you choose not to promote.

Your points that you are attempting to establish are getting lost in the muck and mire of your spitefull and intentional misquoting of previous posters intent.

Do you have something to contribute? Or, do you feel this is the only method you have in your tyrannical arsenal to get the opportunity for your peers to listen to you.

Honestly, I have not heard of someone being put on so many other members ignore list as rapidly as you have so far.

Eventually, there will be no one left to listen. Is that what you would like to achieve?

Ed

losthenfound

Well, you can have a 1/4" gap wide open inside the 'J' -OR- a nice tight vertical 1/8" matching caulk bead.

You can have a gutter on top and leaks -OR- You can have a Water-table and no leaks.

vinylguy

i have seen hardi plank siding on homes that were fallen off i should try to remember where that was and take some pic's for ya! its not the products fault its the installers fault! wonder if lost and his crew of subs was on this job?

vinylguy

give it a brake already lost you are totally annoying!

oldfrt

What happens when the caulk fails ,as all caulks do.Do you have color matched faded caulk.what about those spots where the failed caulk can't be seen.Do you go back and check the caulk at the gable ends for the HO every few years,before damage is done.
Let's see,your remedy is caulk,ours is metal flashing to keep the water out of where it shouldn't be.
Doesn't take too long to figure this one out.
Ask any HO that tries to repair the caulk around his bath tub ,which product he'd rather see used.

neolitic

Al -- I'm not here to join his crusade, if that's how you install good for you, and your customers
All I'm saying is I've never actually seen it being done that way.
Seriously, if we checked out 100 random vinyl houses how many would really look like Tinner's detail, or the one in the manual?
I'm betting, damn few.
I also know that aluminum gutters can be installed properly, but 90% of the ones I see have miters that leak after a couple of years and half have hanger penetrations below the water line.
I don't say it's impossible, just that not many installations are done properly.
Peace , man

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oldfrt

I'll bet ya they had caulk in them miters,probably the same stuff lost uses,

neolitic

If you draw comfort from that, good luck to you.

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A W Smith

That was not a dig against you. I was just pointing out that it is the method recommended by a leading siding manufacturer. I agree that the majority of installations do not meet that standard in that documentation. Lost insists that vinyl cannot be installed properly and that its mechanically incorrect. that documentation proves otherwise. You can use any flashing material as i have. Even scrap vinyl siding if the last course is less than half the exposure of a double profile panel. or #30 felt. Or even house wrap. All draped over the nailing fin of the last course.

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Al Smith
http://www.awsmith.com

losthenfound

Yepper I tried some old bread wrappers and tin foil held up there with some old bailing wire. I even stuck me up some old napkins to prove it was still leaking...DUCT TAPE - THAT WORKED FOR A WHILE

We were doing that flashing plate thing in the late 70's - yep I did this stuff - managed 30 plus crews installing this stuff - It is garbage.

You guys are funny. Look at the "Pros" - Wow the VSI should be proud.


Come on - admit it and you will sleep beter tonight

A W Smith

Your phones not ringing and your shaken up. Aren't you Lost. Cmon admit it your pi**ed! You will sleep better once you get over your anger.

__________________
Al Smith
http://www.awsmith.com

losthenfound

AW - I ask, "Who is angry here?"

The guys that are angry are the ones that know the truth. It is not rocket science. This stuff is garbage and you either have to own up to it, or you have to make up excuses and follow bunny rabbit trails to explain (confuse) the issue. The stuff LEAKS! Proven in your own discussion. How do you even entertain a "PROPER" installation method?

So, get mad.....block me....truth hurts

Superior Siding

So lost,

Why fight with these guys if they are out there causing these leaks, you can clean up

losthenfound

You are right. I have to get back to welding some aluminum gutter miters.

vinylguy

do'nt they make gutters out of fiber cement yet? i wonder why? oh besides being so heavy i am sure it wouldn't hold water! at least not without a ton of caulk. can you explain this for me? lost lets do a comparasion lets hang one piece of fiber on a house and one piece of vinyl and see when it rains where the water goes! my piont being is just hanging it one piece water is going to do the same thing to each piece except where the water goes behind the fiber it gets no air flow and will stay their and create mold wheras the vinyl siding will let the water drain out! is this correct? with this in mind the water trapped behind the fiber would be the perfect mixture for mold correct? what is it they say mold is the asbestos of the 21st centry! ok so with proper caulking around the fiber you say you can stop the water penatration, good piont! but what happens when the caulking fails? also as with any thing installed by human labor we are prone to mistakes, what happens when one of your subs do not seal that butt on the gable correctly? mold thats what happens now you say that won't happen with proper flashing, true but the same thing is true with vinyl properly flashed and seales. the piont is to error is human so without proper installation either is possible but at least with vinyl it can drain out like the dry "repeat " dry water spots on the tyvac pic you showed us. i wonder how green that pic would have been if that was fiber cement you tore off of thier home. not to mention the damage to the existing wood underneath from just removing the fiber siding! I WOULD HAVE TO SAY THAT IT WOULD BE THE INSTALLERS FAULT AND NOT THE THE PRODUCTS FAULT FOR ISSUES THAT ARISE MAY I GET AN AMEN?

dkillianjr

AMEN, I just read an article in JLC magazine where a whole house had to be stripped of its siding because of the mold and mildew problems behind it. You can't tell me that those butt joints in fiber cement don't shrink and crack the caulking. Take a look at any fiber cement job thats a couple years old I guarentee that there will be seperations and cracked caulking. Plus now it seems like most people are looking for matenence free products, that do not require painting and caulking and so on.


Dave

concretemasonry

Siding is just a material applied to the house. It is not intended to be waterproof or water tight. Every home must have a primary moisture barrier that may be a wrap, building paper layers or a spray on. It should also breathe.

There are many types of siding materials that all rely on the moisture barrier and the proper installation of openings. These include aluminum, vinyl, steel or cement-based siding, stucco, brick, stone and others.

Some siding materials are better at shedding the water or absorbing it before it gets to the barrier. Vinyl is notorious for letting water through because the nature of the construction since it has flexibility, expansion/comtraction and reliance on numerous channels.

If everything is done right, the house will be watertight. If not, there are more opportunities for moisture problems. Some systems are more prone to problems and are less forgiving.

__________________
Dick

losthenfound

Here here Concrete....But I read above something about caulking and butt joints? Where siding butts each other, there is no head lap like roofing. Bib flashing is installed at the Butt Joints. At the trim junctures, proper head flashing with a true watershed is installed (not a water collecting J channel)



and then caulking is used on the remaining 3 sides. Tight and not intended to leak. When re-caulking is needed - YOU RE-CAULK.



What happens when your sub-level band-aide wears out? You seem to think your primary (Sub-Level underlay) will last as long as your siding. When you side with Vinyl, your primary waterproofer is Tarpaper, TYVEK, or whatever band-aide you use. You make the project, essentially, a glorified, pastel covered, tarpaper shack.

Thanks for the banter.

vinylguy

sweet come back but again we were not comparing a sloped bottm with a j channel now were we? again you miss the piont of all reality on this subject and neglect to just answer our comment or ?s on here with a simple right or wrong! why because you are so dedicated to running vinyl down that you keep missing and not answering the obvious ! you know we could have a logical thread here if you would just admit its the installers problem and not the products! heck how about i just use the same flASHING TECHNGHE as you and hang a piece of vinyl with a starter strip and flashing that angles down just like you showed in previous pic's agian all water runs out or down correct? so please quit being an a**h*le on here ! fact is at this piont i'm done replying to you! and really wish someone would shut you off from here for good. it's a good thing to have debates on here just not with idiots who distorts the truth whenever they can~!

losthenfound

Hey Vinyl
On that horizontal J: It would not matter if you had a head flashing. The channel collects rain water and distributes it to the sides where it flows down and behind the cladding.

I agree that it is the installer's problem. The VSI has put the information out to the installers and to the bldg inspectors, BUT NOT TO THE CONSUMER. It is your job now to tell them.