Vinyl Siding Sales

losthenfound

When you sell Vinyl Siding:

Do you tell your client that the siding will leak?
You should consider the implications:

http://www.contractortalk.com/f33/watertight-integrity-viynl-siding-16287/

Bob Kovacs

Nope- I'd tell them that a proper weather barrier will be integrated into the vinyl siding "system" in order to minimize moisture intrusion, as any house, regardless of the type of siding installed, will take in some water. Is a vinyl siding system "waterproof"? Nope- but neither is wood, stucco or hardboard siding, asphalt shingle, cedar shake or standing seam metal roofing, or wood, vinyl, or metal windows. So, what's it going to be ma'am???

A W Smith

Why would I tell my clients that the siding will leak when it wont if I install it? Lost you should download vinyl sidnig literature and lean how to properly install it.

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Al Smith
http://www.awsmith.com

concretemasonry

Bob - You missed one other material on your list of "waterproof" materials - brick. People think that brick is waterproof because of its image and permanence. The performance is superior in most exterior surfaces because of inherent properties that make it more foregiving when other things are not just "right"

Also, most sources of leaks are around the openings (doors, windows) where there is about a 60% failure due to improper installation methods and details. - Too many "old ole boy" traditions that really do not reflect what goes on in a newer structure.

The "good ole boys" keep many people (attorneys, insurance companies, testing labs and consultuants) busy, so they are not entirely bad.

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Dick

Engineer, designer and consultant recently active domestically and internationally on construction and design in about 35 countries.

oldfrt

In 2004, vinyl-siding manufacturers shipped about 41.2 million "squares," or 100 square feet, of vinyl siding and soffit, according to the Vinyl Siding Institute, a trade association. That's up from 30.4 million squares in 1995.


Recent studies show that vinyl siding accounts for about 75 percent of the remodeling market and 50 percent of the overall market, said Linnea Johnson, vinyl-product manager for Alcoa Home Exteriors.

Imagine what it has become in the last two years!

Taking another shot at the market holder,Lost?

Bob Kovacs

You're right- I missed brick, and as you well know, it's another material that can be a disaster if it's installed incorrectly, or function perfectly fine when it's done well.

I always laugh when people look at an old, 3-wythe brick building and say "yup- they don't build 'em like they used to". If they knew about the amount of water that gets sopped up by such a wall, or the rotted lintels, etc., that such construction can create, they'd agree with me when I reply to them "and thank God they don't build 'em like that any more".....lol.

oldfrt

As taken from consumer reports:


Fiber cement. Providing the look of wood but requiring less maintenance, fiber-cement siding is starting to supplant the natural stuff. This cement-based product with reinforcing fibers doesn't need to be repainted as frequently as wood and resists impacts and insects. Because it's relatively brittle, it can be damaged if water gets between shingles and then freezes


Soooooooooo,when you sell your product,do you tell your client all the facts?

Bob Kovacs

But if you just use enough caulk when you install it, the water can't get in there in the first place

A W Smith

but how many squares of caulk does an average house need?

__________________
Al Smith
http://www.awsmith.com

Bob Kovacs

Well, if you buy it in the 5-gallon value-bucket for application by air-powered gun, you can expect to get anywhere from 4-6 squares per bucket- it all depends on the course exposure, silly.......

losthenfound

Boy - Ruffled some feathers. You know they say when you throw a rock into a group of dogs - the one that yells is the one that got hit.

Butt and caulk and a true watertable (water-shed) at the top (not a water collecting gutter). My siding does not leak and neither does my roofing. Next we will hear how ice and water underlayment provides for a leak-proof roof. We don't rely on any sub-level approach to PROPERLY flash our work. No water gets in. Water is the enemy and you must use a runner at the roof, and close to grade on any siding (whoops - except vinyl). With Vinyl, we use some Tape and Ice and Water stuff and some napkins to make sure we are not leaking.

You guys ought to thank me for making you think a bit more and next job you may slow down yer slapp'n long enough to contemplate what you are doing.

Just wondering how you sold this stuff to the public.

Superior Siding

Keep it civil guys. The information is great. Keep sharing.

losthenfound

Politics: Selling your ideas to perpetuate your own livelyhood. This is what it is here. The question was: Do you tell your customer that the system leaks? Or do you glaze over the truth with double talk?

troubleseeker

I must meet you to worship at your feet if you can install vinyl siding that is waterproof.

If you read the vinyl siding literature that you aspouse to others, then you know that one of the first requirements in every manufacturer's installation manuel is that "the siding must be installed over a water proof substrate".

I'm not just picking on vinyl, because as stated in this thread topic, any type of cladding is only worth the attention that is paid to the flashing and waterproofing details. As a renovater, I get to see years later what has happened to the framing behind all types of exterior siding, and there are plenty of horrors to be seen for all of them when poorly installed.

losthenfound

Trouble

Just a question for you:
Is your contention that you must install a weather barrier behind all siding to acheive a true watersheding system? And one more question for you:
Is your contention that you must also install an underlayment to acheive a leak proof roof?

A W Smith

now where did i say that only the siding itself would be waterproof? I said it would not leak. that statement includes the entire system. The house wrap, The membrane, The flashing, The window flashing details. The waterproof substrate as you call it. The whole nine yards. Installed correctly the entire system Wont Leak, so why should i tell my customers otherwise? How many decades going back into the forties, thirties and twenties has siding had builders felt behind it? and why is that? because??? Its part of THE SYSTEM.

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Al Smith
http://www.awsmith.com

losthenfound

That thinking is at the very core of what is wrong in today's marketplace of ideas. Yesterday, the underlayment was installed to protect the building from damage while under construction. Now, the thinking is that we have a "system." Somehow, primary protection is foresaken for the idea that the underlayment is somehow going to work as a primary protection. This thinking is now present in modern roofing and siding. Proper flashing details are compromised because of the new underlayments. Precipitation should never make it to the underlayment. The VSI says that the siding they promote is only a "Suplemental Rain Screen." So, where is the primary protection?

We have exposed the primary issue that has now seperated us from the days when men thought of their work as real and primary protection. To buy this "System" idea is to buy what they are selling. More underlayments, more band aids, more problems. Real details are compromised that provide a true and lasting watershed. All this because the system is flawed and the near total dumbing down of the industry has arrived. So, is it the manufacturer's flawed ideas that we should respect? I say no, because wrong is wrong. I challenge you to look a little closer at the work of yesterday and compare it to today's compromised systems.

Do a google on: "Band-Aide" Roofers & Siders

A W Smith

Lost can you hyperlink me to the words "Supplemental rain screen" On the VSI web site. I am having trouble finding it.


found it

__________________
Al Smith
http://www.awsmith.com

tinner666

Siding is just vertical roofing. Some attention to detail can prevent full reliance on underlays. Even wood or hardi siding has details that need to be addressed.
http://www.rooferscoffeeshop.com/sho...&file=5557&s=0

I didn't have any siding available, so I used a piece of 1x6 to illustrate.
In the first pic, I clipped the corner the way a butt joint needs to be clipped.
In the second pic, I clipped the corner the way a dorma side piece needs to be clipped.
The third pic shows how the siding looks at the butted end. Sorry, I forgot to add a piece of corner board.
The 4th pic is an end view of the lap.
In the 5th, I slid the upper piece to the side to better show how the clipped corner is hidden.
The 6th pic is just another end view.

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Frank Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.

Patrick

Hey Lost, Do some research on "rain screen" walls. IT s a proven method which assumes even conventional siding will leak, so the siding is furred off the wall and water is allowed to run down the membrane and exit at the bottom of the wall. This method is proven and has been around for a really long time. In fact you can find it in Fine home builder mag.

Why don't you go do some work? Your like that window salesman that calls me every week peddling his windows.

For the record Our vinyl siding system does not allow water to touch the sheathing. We do not use conventional J channels. We use our own trim system which hides all the J's and gutters water back out right under the window. And through the use of 20' boards we have very few seams in the field and on many houses there are in fact none.