Vinyl Siding discussion - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

HomeSealed · 06-14-2008, 06:51 PM

For those of you who specialize in vinyl siding, what are your thoughts on the current argument between insulation backed and hollow-core? (Basic argument: between EPS and XPS insulation- that the insulation backed vinyl siding loses its R-value and holds moisture. The other side says that 3/4' foam board used behind hollow-core to acheive an R-5 doesn't breath and can cause mold issues by trapping the moisture. ...The funny thing about the whole issue is that you can have one company with subsidiaries trying to discredit each other. In the past week I had reps from Revere and Alside (both owned by AMI) come into my office and show me testing and documentation to discredit the other guy's claims... Having installed primarily Craneboard in the past I'm somewhat torn on the issue. One thing that I have to say I was pretty impressed by was the new "Prodigy" insulation backed siding from Alside that claims an R-5 and guarantees to retain 90% of its R-value....I just wonder if its true

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easy sider · 06-16-2008, 12:54 PM

My thought on foam backed vinyl is its a bad idea. Its a way for the manufacturer to sell you less for more. This concept has been around since the late 70`s when aluminum siding was introduced with foam glued to it. This was going to make the aluminum siding stronger. It all delaminated in time.
With foam glued to vinyl siding, it seems to me that there would be three products with different densities expanding and contracting at different ratios making delamination a real possibility. The vinyl used on these products is thinner and the foam isn't solid sheeting on the wall when installed. The R rating on the foam is not the same as 4x8 foam sheeting. The thickness of the foam on foam glued vinyl siding is nominal.
A 4x8 sheet of poly iso or poly polystyrene at .50 inch is under R-4 and at .75 inch thick under R-6.
We like longer lenght .046 or better vinyl siding over 4x8 sheets of insulfoam. The 4x8 sheets makes a very nice flat surface to side over and the longer lenght siding has fewer seams resulting in nicer looking jobs.

Home Serve · 06-16-2008, 04:25 PM

Quote:

My thought on foam backed vinyl is its a bad idea. Its a way for the manufacturer to sell you less for more. This concept has been around since the late 70`s when aluminum siding was introduced with foam glued to it. This was going to make the aluminum siding stronger. It all delaminated in time.

Easy, These are my thoughts on the foam backed siding also. Seems to me an awful expensive way to add R value. That said we have used some and it makes a nice uniform more solid looking wall. I just don't think the $$$ is worth it. I recommend insulfoam or similar to our customers.
Dave

Kenny K · 06-25-2008, 09:37 PM

performance is not always what it seams to be. There needs to be a vapor barrier and dead air space to realize these actual r values. and does it really transfer into the home to reduce the energy bills like replacement windows

Patrick · 06-25-2008, 10:08 PM

Do any of you install backerboard under insulated siding? We will install it, but i in no way market it.

One thing I will say is that super corners are now STANDARD for us. Even on one story houses.

HomeSealed · 06-26-2008, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by easy sider

My thought on foam backed vinyl is its a bad idea. Its a way for the manufacturer to sell you less for more. This concept has been around since the late 70`s when aluminum siding was introduced with foam glued to it. This was going to make the aluminum siding stronger. It all delaminated in time.
With foam glued to vinyl siding, it seems to me that there would be three products with different densities expanding and contracting at different ratios making delamination a real possibility. The vinyl used on these products is thinner and the foam isn't solid sheeting on the wall when installed. The R rating on the foam is not the same as 4x8 foam sheeting. The thickness of the foam on foam glued vinyl siding is nominal.
A 4x8 sheet of poly iso or poly polystyrene at .50 inch is under R-4 and at .75 inch thick under R-6.
We like longer lenght .046 or better vinyl siding over 4x8 sheets of insulfoam. The 4x8 sheets makes a very nice flat surface to side over and the longer lenght siding has fewer seams resulting in nicer looking jobs.

The problem with that is the manufacturers acknowledge that it delaminates and say who cares..it is supposed to so it can expand contract etc. In fact some manufactures sell XPS insulation panels formed to a specific siding seperately from the panel. This way it still has the rigidity of the insulated panel..To me that seems to be the real benefit of the insulated product(rigidity). You can acheive the R-value either way but the rigidity and nice flat look is really only achievable with insulated..The main argument seems to be with the perm rating and where the moisture from inside the home actually ends up so that it doesnt create mold etc. Then when you start to throw in the different house wraps etc, it complicates the issue even more.

easy sider · 07-01-2008, 04:07 PM

When using Cedarboards, Craneboard or any of the foam backed panels there is still wall prep required. Even these type products need to be applied to a flat nail-able surface. When these products go over lap siding without underlayment, the installer has to gauge how far in to drive the nail. This leaves some courses to loose and others to tight. The loose panels may chatter in the wind and the tight ones may cause the siding to fail by eliminating expansion.
Should the siding de-laminate and distort, because of the de-lamination, it would be a manufacturers defect. The defective panels should be covered under a warranty. Every rep we have talked to guaranteed no de-lamination in their products.

vinylguy · 07-02-2008, 07:09 AM

we only use crane baord. and in 7 years so far we have had no issues with it and it stays looking sharp ans crisp. as far as holding moisture they channel the back of the foam now and we have had a piece of the isul floating in a bucket for over 1 year now and it still floating and we pour water right on it when we add water. so i don't believe it retains moisture.

easy sider · 07-02-2008, 02:35 PM

If you take a piece of Craneboard, and place 3 drops of iodine on the foam, you can see how moisture could travel into the foam. When moisture penetrates a foam product, and then freezes the foam, it starts to seperate.
Foam sheeting with plastic faces, is a more durable product and provides a solid R value instead of a nominal R value.

starforward · 07-12-2008, 10:38 AM

what is the price difference for insulated vinyl as opposed not insulated ? Are we talking $20 a square or what is it?

vinylguy · 07-14-2008, 10:59 AM

ha! ha! ha!
$20.00 or what, now thats funny!
were talking the cost of good vs evil here, or the good the bad or the ugly!
i don't even think you can bye breakfast today for you and another for less than $20.00.
times they are a changing brother.

Patrick · 07-14-2008, 09:00 PM

I just against my best wishes sold a insulated job tonight. They picked cedar boards over structure and crane

Home Serve · 07-14-2008, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick

I just against my best wishes sold a insulated job tonight. They picked cedar boards over structure and crane

Patrick, what are your reasons for believing this way about "insulated" siding. I'd like to know more about what you think about it?
I personally think it's not in the customers best interest to spend the extra $$$ on it. If their minds were really made up I'd do it but I'd try and lead them another direction.
Thanks,
Dave

Patrick · 07-14-2008, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Home Serve

Patrick, what are your reasons for believing this way about "insulated" siding. I'd like to know more about what you think about it?
I personally think it's not in the customers best interest to spend the extra $$$ on it. If their minds were really made up I'd do it but I'd try and lead them another direction.
Thanks,
Dave

I really just don't firmly believe in the product, YET.... I guess its mostly selfish reasons, when I look at any product we install, my first question is, "Is this going to cost me money 10-20 years down the road" Sure the manufacturer is going to warranty it, and sure mastic and certainteed will pay us material and labor, thats all fine and good, but who REALLY REALLY wants to have their house resided, AGAIN even though its free?

So that being said, Ill try to steer them away, but what the customer wants the customer gets. I charge as if we are doing cedar shakes for the most part. I do however offer the following disclaimer to the customer " Do NOT pick this foam backed product for insulation purposes alone, if at all. Pick this product, because you want a smoother looking wall, with sturdier panels, that will be less likely to sag, and will feel more like wood siding."

I find there are two types of people that ask me about insulated siding, there is the person that just read about it in a magazine, and asks just to sound educated, and really doesn't care what goes on their house, and then there is the customer that no matter what you say to them wants what they want and that is all they will settle for.

In our market the only companies pushing foam backed, are the high priced, high pressure finance companies. So If I can come in slightly below them and still make really good money, its a win win.

Home Serve · 07-14-2008, 09:51 PM

Quote:

In our market the only companies pushing foam backed, are the high priced, high pressure finance companies. So If I can come in slightly below them and still make really good money, its a win win.

I find the same thing around here. The salesperson tells them a good story most often leaving out a lot of facts but making promises galore. The people think the heating/cooling bills are going to .......poof.....go away....
Dave

Patrick · 07-14-2008, 09:57 PM

"Last year I replaced all the windows in my house

with that expensive double-pane energy efficient

kind, and today, I got a call from the contractor

who installed them. He was complaining that the work

had been completed a whole year ago and I still

hadn't paid for them.

Hellloooo,...........just because I'm blonde

doesn't mean that I am automatically stupid.

So, I told him just what his fast talking sales guy had told me

last year, that in ONE YEAR these windows would pay

for themselves!

Helllooooo? It's been a year! I told him.

There was only silence at the other end of the line, so I

finally just hung up. He never called back. Guess I

won that stupid argument.

I bet he felt like an idiot."

easy sider · 07-22-2008, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by starforward

what is the price difference for insulated vinyl as opposed not insulated ? Are we talking $20 a square or what is it?

If your using a Certainteed .046 extended lenght panel and 4x8x1/2"
r-3.6 compared to Cedarboards or Craneboard its about a $60.00 per square price difference. Also, the Cedarboards uses different accessories that add cost and wall prep will add cost. If wall prep includes tear off to get to a flat surface, house wrap should be used.

On a 16 sq. job, the material and labor difference, including tear off is around $3000.00 or $187.00 per sq.