New Siding And Windows...2 Part Question (long)

daveincincy

A little info to start. The 2 story house was built ~1977. The siding is on the 2nd floor only. It's a wood siding which, at this point, I like to call spongeboard. The wood is a type of fiber/pressed board. It's warped, and the nails aren't neccesarily popping out as it's more the wood is expanding and you can see the nail holes. The planks are ~10" - 12" in width. Putting a fresh coat of paint on this would be like putting perfume on a pig. On to the questions.

Part I (siding):
I've been given a few quotes to put up new siding on the house. 3 out of 4 contractors, if given the job, would put the new siding over the old. Each would put 1/2" insulation between the old/new. The other 1 of the 4 said he would tear down the old siding. I told him how the others said they would keep the old up, and he seemed a little surprised at that. He said he could go whichever way I preferred, as it wouldn't effect his quote, but his intention was to take all the old siding down. I've talked to a few people and most, if not all, don't see anything wrong with keeping the old up. They also bring up the point that keeping the old up will simply add to the insulation. I can't say I disagree with this logic. My concern, one of a few, is if that would negatively impact the house's ability to "breathe" putting the new over the old? My other concern is I really don't want to see what's behind the old, creating an even larger, more expensive project. This is probalby not a good way of thinking (ignorance is bliss). I recently did a master bath remodel, and seeing the condition of the black/fiber board behind the siding from the inside made me not want to know what it looked like over the rest of the house....maybe that was just because the tile in the shower was in rough shape allowing moisture through from the inside (wishful thinking). The contractor bidding to take down the old siding would use the Polar Wall siding by Norandex. Seems like good stuff. The other contractor I'm considering using would use, I believe, Mastic Quest siding. For whatever it's worth, I want to go with the vinyl, shake look on the front for that distinguished look, and I'll just go standard vinyl siding on the other 3 sides.

What would be the pros/cons of putting the new over the old? What should I look for and be concerned about? Any comments on the Norandex Polar Wall and Mastic Quest sidings? The Polar Wall seems like it would be more durable since the insulation is formed to fit within the vinyl siding.


Part II (windows):
I will also be replacing 19 windows with vinyl replacements. The windows quoted are Simonton, Polaris, and Atrium. Off the top of my head, I don't recall specific models, but each quote was for the higher end models of each. I'm actually waiting on the quote for the Atrium windows. 2 contractors each quoted Simonton. One from Homey Depot and the other from an independent guy. HD was considerably more for the same windows....like 9.5k vs 14k. I see good comments regarding Simonton on this board. I've heard good things regarding Schuco windows on another forum, but I think they'll pump the cost up. Besides, I've been to Schuco's website and they don't even list dealers on their website. Any comments regarding the above mentioned windows.

BTW, I'm in Cincinnati (if you couldn't tell by the screen name). If you know of a reputable installer that would like to quote on this work let me know. I plan on making a decision within 2 weeks. I'll also be replacing the garage door so that's something else to consider. Due to the design of our house (L-shaped), the garage door is front entry and a major focal point. Therefore, we're considering getting something other than the standard door. We'd like something that looks almost like a barn door, like those you see on your upscale, Homearama style homes. I've yet to contact the bigger dealers in town...AE Door, Overhead Door.

Thanks. Sorry that was so long...my fingers are tired....but when you're talking a major purchase/job such as this, and considering how tight I am with money....well, you can understand.

bob the builder

I think you nailed it on the head!!!

When tearing off the siding you have to pay extra dumpster fees and labor to tear off (if still installing insulation), but you can see what it looks like underneath, say termite damage, or wood rot by windows, unstructual wall design, exc.

daveincincy

The contractor that quoted me for the siding, and that would take off the old siding, said the price would not be affected if I chose to have or not have the old siding removed. I assume that if the old siding was removed, the black fiber board would stay up and the new siding would go over that. So I wouldn't really see the potential damage underneath that I saw while having the master bath remodeled. The Polar Wall Plus siding has insulation laminated to the vinyl. Example pic....which you may already be aware of this siding.


To get off the main topic just a bit, here are the pics of what was discovered during the masterbath remodel.



Fortunately, there was no sign of current/live activity. And those 2x4's were replaced.

Grumpy

Tearing off is always better. If installing vinyl or aluminum siding I do not mind placing the new siding over the old... assuming the new siding is in good enough condition. However I do still recommend tearing off when the budget allows. If installing wood or fibercement you must first tear off.

If I were your contractor tearing off would cost slightly more. There is labor and disposal fees involved with the tear off. Also if tearing off you may find that there is no backing board, plywood behind the siding. In my area there must be some kind of backing board so your cost would again go up... this is the reason 4 out of 5 guys like to put new siding over old.

"I don't want to go to the doctor because he might say I am sick." I'd prefer to know I am sick so I can take positive steps to correct the problem. I don't even want to start tearing apart that logic of not knowing about the problems in your house.

Quest Mastic is a good siding with some dark colors that other siding manufacturers won't touch. I am not into the polar wall type sidings with built in insulation. However Norandex does also make some good vinyl siding. Most, if not all, siding manufacturers make some type of shake siding.

I like Simonton. They make a good product. I have no experience with the other products you mentioned. When comparing windows figure out what is important to you and compare that feature. Always remember no matter how good the window is, it will be crap if not properly installed. Almost all manufacturers make multiple ranges of windows so if comparing top of the line windows from company A to bottom of the line windows to company B, you may have a skewed opinion of either company.

daveincincy

Thanks for the input, Grumpy.

To my knowledge, the only thing behind the existing siding is the black fiberboard, but I've only seen in between the walls from the inside and not from the outside. I can't say for sure what steps would be taken by each contractor and what they would use for backing....something definitely worth inquiring about. Maybe I missed it in the initial quote/consultation, or maybe it's just slipped my mind....it's been about 2 months since I received these quotes (was waiting for that year end bonus from work to make a decision).

When you say you're "not into the Polar Wall type sidings," are you saying you haven't dealt with it to make an opinion, or you're not sure you like it?

As far as windows go, I'm trying to compare apples to apples by comparing high end models in each line....for whatever that's worth. I understand that may still leave room for arguement.

Grumpy

That black fiberboard may be just as waterlogged as the siding is, especially is there is no form of vapor barrier between the sidings and fiberboard.

I am saying I do not like the sidings with built in insulations. They are a gimick more than anything IMO. Also from an installation point of view they are harder to cut. And froma clean up point of view the insulation that is used is similiar to packaging foam and when you break it it crumbles at the break and you get little pieces of insulation everywhere, hard to clean up! In general I am not a fan of anything that does more than one thing. Also cost comparision, for the same R value it's usually cheaper for you to have the foam insulation board installed seperately.

Compare features, that's all I have to say. For example, when I sell the prism platinum it does not come standard with double strength glass, but I sell it standard... So I make it a point to tell my customers that my glass has a glass breakage warranty. This is why I say you have to compare feautures, every window can be upgraded or down graded.

What you want to know more than anything is the R value of the glass unit. This sums up alot about the window into one statistic, and in my opinion is the most important. Other things you want to know... LowE 1(hard) or 2(soft)? Insulation type Air, Argon or Krypton. Air is cheapest and has the least R value while Krypton is the most expensive and has the highest R value. In my opinion the slight gain in R value from upgrading from argon to krypton isn't worth the tremendous investment. Also you want to know if it's dual pane or triple pane. Again i feel triple pane isn't worth the extra money but if money is no object I recommend the 2" IGU triple pane and krypton insulation. There has tobe a balance between value and quality.

abelc

Dont Know if it helps but the Insulated siding is a great product. Ive put on quite a bit of it this year, and it looks great. It takes out a lot of the bows and waves in the wall. Other than hardiplank, its the best thing out there.If youre going with vinyl use it. I would tear off if it were me. You dont know whats lurking around those windows. If youre gonna live there for 15 or 20 years you ought to check it out, at least the side of your house that gets the most weather.

antioch siding

i agree with grumpy i perfer to know if iam sick a bandaid is no good if you need stitches ialso like norandaxn siding if your old siding is rotten and there is no plywood behind it what will hold the nails in il ive in ma. and the wind would just blow the siding off.

antioch siding

i hate the siding with built in insulation it stinks if you have to do aover and under cut at the same time you have to brake the bacer out anyways

Grumpy

I accomplish that by installing a 1/4-1/2" foam board insulation. Is there much of a difference?

all vinyl

1/2 '' fanfold or as it's called also leveling board does not work as well . we use 1/2 2x8 green board and go all the way to 1'' depending on the customer i agree the vinyl with the backer is taking off around jersy in the past year but it's all high end 125.00 per sq for a premium pannel to buy vs 70.00 per sq plus 20.00 for 2x8 backer . the 2x8 makes the wall lay nice its ho friendly and mechanick friendly and your not trying to chase strafoam all over the place

jmic

It's always nice to be friendly with your ho's.
Joe

Tom R

I'd say the only advantage of the siding with the built-in insulation is that is fills the 'hollow' of the siding, increasing it's rigidity somewhat. But I'm not really a 'fan' of it or the fanfold. The 'added' insulation factor (what, about .5??) is minimal. I rarely see or feel the need for a 'leveling board'.

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washout9779

You said your siding was getting wavey, unless you want your new siding to wave too I would tear the old off. Nice clean wall is always good to start with.
The foambacked vinyl siding might be a pain to install, but I love it. It does add a lot of rigidity, thats why Crane makes a triple 6, quad 4.5, and quad 4. The fact that it is not hollow also protects much better against hail and the ocasional baseball. I have found the best sales point for foambacked is to lay a piece on the driveway and drive over it with my truck, helps to show a normal piece of vinyl when doing this also. I am not sure about Polar Wall Plus but Crane offers an extra R4 or R4.5 depending on the profile. Where as an extruded foam backer offers R5 per inch, and 3/8 fan is R1.13 I could go on forever like I said love the stuff. But I am not much for talk so if interested www.vinyl-siding.com tons of good info

jmic

JEESH, guess it's a good thing you don't sell windows.
Joe

washout9779

Actually I do sell windows. Ever drive a 16D coated sinker into a 2x4 using a 12x12 glasspack???? Its a fun demo, especially when you hit it square and shatter it lol

747

My advice is this. Go with the simenton replacement windows and take old clapboards off of the house. Thats the way my house was done. They took all the old clapboards off the house and detached two car garage. Then they hit it with a house wrap then vinyl. It looks awesome.

Ps Simenton is grumpys favorite replacement windows.

747

I just read all your post. Your getting carried away with windows. You don't need to spend all that money for a good look and energy efficency. Just go with the simenton prism plantinum and get them with the muttons in them. Which will give the illusion of true divided light. It will look awesome and won't be a budget breaker. The type of money your looking into you would be in a new construction window price range.

Ps that window you have in that shower should be replaced with a glass block window with fins in the middle that crank out for ventalation. Thats what i got. Figure 150 for that without labor.

daveincincy

Thanks for all the tips/advice, guys.

The window I'm leaning towards now is the Atrium 8300 model. Double hung, double glazed, Argon gas and contoured grids. I've seen the window actually in someone's house and seen the guy's work. He's already done a few jobs for a neighbor of ours, and several other referral by them with no complaints. That, and his bid came in very budget friendly (low overhead)which is a plus for me. If I recall, I'll be looking at ~$350/window with 19 windows. Slightly more if I go with a garden style window in the kitchen which puts my window count to 20,but the kitchen's been redone and the window was replaced at that time before we moved in 5 years ago. Being that this guy is a one-man show (maybe 2), his overhead must be pretty darn low.....I guess it also helps that we're friends with some old friends of his that referred him.