any triple pane windows advocates here? - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

advanced_energy · 01-08-2009, 06:50 PM

anyone here a triple pane window advocate?

SLSTech · 01-08-2009, 07:07 PM

Not really, but I bet you are...

Mind posting an Intro here - http://www.contractortalk.com/f44/ & update your profile with your location?

All That Glass · 01-08-2009, 07:14 PM

Not enough bang for the buck. Where we live it adds a lot of weight to shipping, not a lot of heat retention compared to high quality super spacer lowe units, and just adds another air space that can eventually fail.

advanced_energy · 01-08-2009, 07:28 PM

well,it will reduce noise and does provide better u-value when considering a super spacer opposed to older spacer technology.

enforcer · 01-08-2009, 08:13 PM

its easy to convince a customer that they need it. it will increase your energy efficiency.i don't care what anyone says.

Home Serve · 01-08-2009, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All That Glass

Not enough bang for the buck. Where we live it adds a lot of weight to shipping, not a lot of heat retention compared to high quality super spacer lowe units, and just adds another air space that can eventually fail.

I vote with you.

tomstruble · 01-09-2009, 12:26 AM

i usually recommend full screens when i bid replacement windows i think they look better and i was thinking that you could probably build a plexi storm panel that goes into the screen track pretty easily.
Maybe just use them on the most exposed windows

Grumpy · 01-09-2009, 11:37 AM

Like All That said, not enough bang for the buck. It's a great idea but costs too much IMO. Sure if a customer wants the highest insulation and lowest sound transmission we'd probably be going that route, but it's not realistic. Quite honestly it's just another extension of the tricks and gimicks that the window market is known for.

dougchips · 01-09-2009, 03:58 PM

I sell more triple pane windows than I do double pane window because I believe they are a great solution for my clients needs. 3 years ago I never sold them because my vendors told me bullcrap like "they are too heavy", "old people can't open them", "no balance system can support them for more than 6 months", they are not worth the money"...............

I'm not here to talk anyone into selling anything, just don't lie to people because you failed to educate yourself about the features and benefits of other product lines. (statement is not aimed at anyone in general)

Triple Pane · 01-09-2009, 04:15 PM

Nope not a fan... LOL

HomeSealed · 01-09-2009, 05:42 PM

I sell both. Most of the time a good double pane is the better dollar value, but a triple pane does have a better U-value and some people want to pay the premium. There are a lot of other "gimmicky" sales features that are a bigger waste of money IMO.

advanced_energy · 01-10-2009, 10:03 AM

i agree doug_chips. most contractors are great installers but absolutely clueless about the true benefits of not only a triple pane window but a quality window as well. far too many contractors have the mentality that extra features are a gimmick. i can tell you that 90% of window contractors could'nt tell you the difference between a spacer and a balance.

Patrick · 01-10-2009, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomstruble

i usually recommend full screens when i bid replacement windows

I dont, I have yet to find a full screen for a double hung window, that wasnt tricky for me to install. Nevermind a 75 year old customer.

tomstruble · 01-11-2009, 10:27 AM

I dont think my customers are removing the screens all that much Patrick

Oberon · 01-12-2009, 07:43 AM

To say that triple pane windows are a gimmick is like saying that building a 2x6 wall is a gimmick. A 2x6 wall does provide improved energy perfromance over a 2x4 wall and a triple pane window is going to provide improved energy performance over a dual pane window - with a caveat.

A dual pane window with a dual or triple layer softcoat LowE coating will equal or exceed the performance of a clear glass triple pane. In order to achieve higher energy perfomance from a triple it is necessary, at a minimum, to coat at least one lite in the triple

Triple panes with LowE coating to two surfaces and gas fill will be required to meet the 2012 Energy Star zone 5 requirement in 2012. By 2015 they will be needed to meet both zone 4 and zone 5.

In most parts of the country a coated dual pane window will meet pretty much anyone's requirements for improved energy performance. But in the far north the coated triple pane can be a really nice add on.

Using super spacer in a triple versus using a low conductance metallic spacer adds nothing to the overall energy performance of a triple. Even using aluminum as the spacer material in a triple adds only .02 to the overall U-factor of the triple, versus super spacer, assuming everything else about the units are identical.

While using a foam spacer does improve edge temperature performance in a dual pane (about 2-1/2 degrees versus stainless), it adds very little to almost nothing in the overall perfomance of the unit (depending on size and make up). A dual pane with foam spacer is not going to come close to meeting the overall energy performance numbers of a well designed triple (one that has all the tricks and gimmicks) - even using an aluminum spacer in the triple.

Triples are often krypton filled. Krypton is expensive - last I heard something like 100 times the cost of argon.

If the triple is built using narrow airspaces (~1/4" or less), then krypton may be the most cost effective gas to use since the energy improvement by using krypton in the narrow space is considerably better than using argon.

However, triples are also made using wider airspaces (> 3/8" airspace). In those units using argon is substantially more cost effective than using krypton as gas infill. And the energy performance numbers for argon at 7/16" airspace to about 3/4" airspace is not much different than using krypton.

Despite a very wide spread belief, triple pane does not necessarily improve sound perfromance over dual pane. If both triple and dual pane IG's use the same thickness glass and the same overall width airspace, then STC is going to be the same. There are some variations at different frequency ranges, however. And, much like overall energy performance, using a foam spacer does not add any appreciable sound attenuation advantage to an IG unit.

What triple panes can be is heavy. In a window that is engineered and built correctly this shouldn't be a problem in operation or longevity, but the installers may not always be thrilled.

In addition, there are some engineering and construction challenges for the IG manufacturer when building triples. It isn't simply a matter of slapping a third lite to a dual (although to some folks that's about the extent of their engineering). To the more conscientious manufacturers there is careful consideration of the differences between dual and triple constructions to ensure that the triples will perform as advertised and that they will last as long as required.

All else being equal, triples do outperform duals in overall energy performance. This can be a very significant improvement in terms of overall home energy performance.

In the right circumstances there is the bang for the buck that justifies the additional cost (which may not be that significant - look around at what is out there) of triples. In the not quite right circumstances they are probably overkill and may not be worth the extra cost or consideration.

I am kinda curious what constitutes the "gimmicks and tricks" that window makers apparently use to fool consumers and homeowners though...

Patrick · 01-12-2009, 04:56 PM

Oberon, What do you think of companies that make triple pane and fill one pane with Argon and one pane with Krypton to cut down on cost. Would it make any difference which pane is filled with which? And does one really leak out faster than the other?

advanced_energy · 01-12-2009, 09:15 PM

using krypton or argon has absolutely nothing to do with leakage. leakage is the result of seal failure usually caused by a defective spacer or a cheap spacer.
with that said, a company has to have the state of the art machinery which enables them to assemble a glass system properly. i amnot a big fan of intercept;its an ok spacer but outdated in my opinion. i just think over the years seals are more prone to failure when dealing with a tin/steel ig opposed to foam or tps.

tomstruble · 01-12-2009, 09:19 PM

Patrick ive heard of the gas leaking out is that a big problem?Does it happen often?How can you tell if it does?

Oberon · 01-12-2009, 09:32 PM

Patrick,

Both argon and krypton will migrate thru the seal/spacer; seal failure is not required for gas to escape, it is simply much faster.

Current state-of-the-art in argon loss is about 1% per year. I have never heard of a krypton equivalent measurement. Since krypton molecules are smaller than argon it is harder to keep krypton contained in the IG than it is argon.

There are non-destructive methods available to check argon levels in the field. There is currently no method available to check krypton containment in an IG in the field.

I have never heard of anyone adding argon to one airspace and krypton to the other; but I do know companies that use argon / krypton mixes as inert gas infill. I have heard of some that use as little as 10% krypton to 90% argon and still call their units "krypton filled". I cannot verify if they really go that low, but I do know of 25%/75% and 50%/50% krypton/argon fills.

In real life, there isn't enough krypton available to fill 100% of only Andersen's yearly production (if they chose to do so), forget everyone else. Argon is roughly 1% of the atmosphere while krypton is .00011% of the atmosphere.

silvertree · 01-12-2009, 09:52 PM

I had a window rep tell me argon or krypton are gone from the window in a year. I didn't buy his windows (Vetter), but was surprised to hear a rep say that.
All things considered there are many good window manufacturers, but all we hear about are Pella, Anderson, Marvin.
The fenestration council has over a hundred companies listed.

3 panes I would not offer, but I would sell them if specifically asked.